Sorry, I have to chime in here. I have a PhD in Digital Signal Processing, specifically Audio processing.
Irrespective of source (Spotify, Apple Music, Local Files) and Codec (MP3, AAC, FLAC etc), playback over a Bluetooth connection DOES affect the playback quality.

For Bluetooth to work the phone first decodes the streamed music to whatever original quality it was (e.g. 44.1kHz, 16 bit). THEN it determines which bluetooth profile the other endpoint supports. Worst case it's A2DP, which is very old and highly lossy. It encodes it in A2DP, sends via bluetooth and the car then decodes again. I could not find which bluetooth profiles are supported by the LC 500, but if they would support the newer less lossy ones (aptX, LDAC) they would for sure market it.
So any supposed improvements by using a different app are easily negated by connecting via bluetooth.
To avoid the lossy nature of bluetooth either connect via USB or use Android Auto/Apple CarPlay. Even then the car processes the digital audio signal further to adapt to the speakers and car, the surround effect and more.

Having said that: The car is a noisy environment - these nuances are most likely lost when driving. If you like to rock out while parked in the driveway then have at it.

 

What do you mean by lossy? Be specific.
What do you mean by streamed? What is the source?

 

Streamed: I am referring to using Apple Music, Spotify etc as a way to get content from the internet to your phone. Could even be music (or podcast) files stored on your device.

Lossy: the process by which data has to be thrown away to make it fit into a narrower pipe (e.g. to fit the limited bandwidth of Bluetooth).
E.g. the phone will (re-)encode your already decoded (from streaming) digital file. Here are the choices available as defined in the standards:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codecs#Bluetooth

When the phone connects via bluetooth to the car, both phone and car exchange what each are capable off. E.g. I can support phone calling, can support controls (e.g. skipping forward backward, pause) and can playback music (A2DP). And each car (or bluetooth speaker etc) can support specific codecs as per the list above. All support SBC, since it's the base requirement for audio via bluetooth. But the bluetooth SBC bandwidth is 1/3'rd of CD quality at best. Plus the SBC codec is designed to quickly and efficiently encode, which provides more constraints. So a 500kbps SBC tends to be of lesser audio quality to a 500kbps MP3 encoded audio file. And often it's only ~250kbps that is supported via older Bluetooth connections (compare to ~1400 kbps for CD quality and multiple that for uncompressed high-res). So when re-encoding a digital signal to fit into bluetooth it will have to make compromises. The algorithm (SBC) determines that. These algorithms are designed to provide the best compromise possible given the constraints. Newer codes (aptX HD, LDAC) assume a higher bandwidth over newer Bluetooth connections (5.0 etc) and are therefore able to make fewer (audio) compromises. But if the destination (car, speaker etc) does not support these newer capabilities then the client (your phone) will fall back to the lesser ones.

When connected via USB cable (or even WiFi) the bandwidth is so high that the phone does not need to go through these shenanigans...

 

Arghh.....I promised to bow out but........

As a transmission protocol, Bluetooth "can" be lossy. It depends on the flavour of Bluetooth and the devices involved. Bluetooth Classic, Bluetooth LE, coded PHY or not, etc. Generally, any loss in audio files is essentially unnoticeable except in audiophile level equipment. Or, if you have a super keen ear. Probably not the case in a noisy car unless parked with the engine off. @LCIncline I appreciate your knowledge and credentials in the audio space. I've spent 40 years in IT so I also know a thing or two about this issue from the tech side. Would I prefer to have a wired connection over a Bluetooth one? Sure, but mostly to reduce latency, interference, etc. and not because it delivers better sound. It certainly "can" deliver better sound depending on all the variables involved (file types, size, device capabilities, etc.) but for most people it's not all that noticeable and the differences often outweigh the convenience factor. Especially if you're playing /mp3 quality music (which is barely music in my opinion).

The entire purpose of this thread, I believe, was how to coax better sound out of the existing system without spending a bundle. Not going down the rabbit hole of bit rates, compression, blah, blah. I offered a suggestion - buy a relatively cheap music player for your phone with capabilities that will improve sound quality. One proven to help out in most cases (and that come with a free trial). Probably wise to try that before replacing speakers, amps, and other components. No?

Heading off to enjoy some music now.

 

How do you know what the original contained? What is the original?
Bluetooth 3.0 is 24 Mbps that is more than enough Bluetooth 5.0 is double that. Going back to Bluetooth 1.0x (don't know what devices had that) it does 732Mbps or something like that still good enough for most audio.

 

Forgive my ignorance but most of this thread is way above my knowledge level. I am just trying to find out if I can improve my audio experience with the ML system in my LC. Surely XM radio is not my best option. Is Spotify using Apple Car Play any better? From what I get from your posts above I would be better off at least using USB instead of Bluetooth for my Apple Car Play connection? Would it help to stream Tidal or something similar to get better audio quality?

Honestly I miss my CD player in the car!

 

Start by listening to a few tracks on USB so you get a good idea overall of how the system sounds. Once your brain is keyed into that you'll hear limitations of other formats if there is any.

 

There was a shocking difference in sound quality between the XM in my 24' vert when my free trial ran out so I connected my iPod Touch latest gen via USB A. I was a fan of XM but the ML sound system is so accurate and revealing the source is critical. It easily exposes the lack of sound quality in poor sources, such as XM. I do have lossless content on my iPod and lossy, and I can instantly tell which is which when they play on shuffle while driving. . . .and I am 50+ with not the best hearing any longer.

 

I gotta ask, how much time you guys spend in the car to care about audio that much?
If you really want pure sound coming from the ML system, turn the ANC and ESE off.

 

I will bow out after this post as well as I don't want it to get heated either.
The main argument I am making is that Bluetooth IS ALWAYS lossy and degrades the audio signal in the Lexus LC 500. Especially because the newer/better codecs (AptX, LDAC etc) do not seem to be supported.
I am not denying that you heard an improvement by using the App, but I suspect it's not because of the 'purer' signal (which would be absolutely negated by using Bluetooth), but by EQ profiles or settings. You mentioned the apps ability to use EQ to match your taste....

Original? In this case let's refer to whatever audio is provided by your existing music/streaming app - irrespective of provenance. This avoids the whole encoding/bitrate discussion of Tidal vs. Apple Music etc etc.
Bluetooth 3.0 is only 24Mbps when it can offload via WiFi, which in cars (and our car) is not supported. So it will fall back to 2-3Mbps, which would actually be sufficient for higher quality Music - BUT the Bluetooth A2DP profile does not support the newer codecs, so you are still stuck with a degradation.

Yup. Just use USB/Apple CarPlay/Android Auto and the whole Bluetooth quality degradation discussion is irrelevant.

 

If you can't define what lossless is then there is no validity to talking about lossy. I know the answer it's not complicated...

 

Is ANC (Active Noise Control?) same as Automatic Sound Levelizer?
Is ESE Surround Sound? If not, what, and how is it turned Off?

This thread has got me interested in music again for my 30 min drive to work. Usually, I listen to podcasts.

Thanks,

Rob

 

so i read up some stuff on what android does with audio. apparently it always UPSAMPLES to 48kHz but this UAPP app turns the upsampling off so the 44.1KHz (for typical ripped CDs) is passed straight through. but i defy ANYONE to hear the difference between the 44.1KHz and 48KHz, especially in a car, and ESPECIALLY over bluetooth or an analog connection.

thank you.

haha... yes the original files may not be changed, but what comes out of the speakers can be, because the file content isn't sent unchanged to the amp. but the differences are likely minuscule and not audible especially on car audio.

i've tried NUMEROUS sources (including tidal through android auto and apple carplay wired and wireless which means full usb bandwidth or WIFI, both of which are much higher bandwidth than bluetooth) and the bottom line to my ears is the ML system's fidelity depends on the music. some it did great with, some was lousy imo and it's all to far forward in staging and pushing it backward much makes the audio sound worse.

the original file not changing is not relevant.

pretty significant potential limitations, but again, i defy most people to hear any differences if they're using current equipment.

one more time, the files aren't transferred. music is delivered as a stream, with source data coming from a file or over the internet, or other server, but then going through a series of steps before going out of the device.

when music is streamed over usb, wifi, or bluetooth, no dac is involved on the source end.

thank you.

that's why apple carplay or android auto is better (much higher bandwidth) because the audio from phone is sent via WIFI (with adapter on pre-'24 cars) or usb to the car.

ah i should have read ahead.



in my testing, the biggest factor was the source and type of the music. older (say 60s/70s) recordings have so little bass usually that the ML system just did a very poor job. but modern music with dynamic range sounds WAY better in most cases.

 

i don't think so. i'd say anc is attempting to lessen road/wind noise in the car (by outputting 'opposite' canceling sound waves from the speakers) and asl is adjusting the volume depending on speed/wind/road noise! but just writing that makes me realize they would have to impact one another, but i've no idea if they're coded to interact.

 

Please see this thread and the corresponding thread inside that thread.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/lc-...hancement.html
The ANC is a definite no for me. The audio system is pumping out frequencies to the same speakers to cancel what the car think it’s hearing. The ESE is also pumping out sound from the engine(supposedly?). Just too many artificial noises being played out to the same speakers you’re trying to listen to the music.

To me, the best way to judge a sound system is to turn all the sound enhancement off, no eq and if it has one, put it in the middle.
Put on a song you like and know it well from a good source(direct connection, no wireless) and close your eyes and listen. If it’s a song you’re familiar of, you know what to expect.

I think some of you are wasting your time from a sound system in a car. No matter how great the sound system might be, it’s limited by the space(room size) and is weighted down by all the glass. I never really liked the (ML) audio sound in the LC. It’s okay. But the ML in RX350 and especially my LS460 is much better. The LS has better room for the sound to disperse, the glass is double pane laminated with an acoustic panel in between. Granted, it’s still limited by the space(room size).
I wouldn’t lose sleep over it.