IMHO if Lexus is serious about making Lexus a desirable brand, then yes, they should take the short-term pain of cancelling the ES in order to push their brand image to the next level in the long term, to the point of being able to sell sexier niche models such as coupes, verts, roadsters, performance and uber luxury variants in more meaningful volumes. Then and only then, when they're perceived as a universally desirable brand, they can start whoring the brand and re-introduce the ES as well as other entry-luxury models without worrying too much about diluting it. If there's one thing they can learn from the Germans this is it. Sure there'll be an immediate short-term drop in sales volume right after the ES is cancelled but Lexus will do just fine in the long term by making their IS and GS lines more complete. Once again the fact that the GS lead Lexus's sales in Japan last year proves that Lexus can do well without the ES.

Could not have said it better!

Wait a minute here, so the ES existence means the Lexus is not serious about being a desirable brand?

This is beyond ridiculous. Did it ever occur to you or others that the ES is a very desirable Lexus as evidenced by its awards, its heritage and the fact that it has sold well since 1992.

Too many people on the internet have access but really don't provide much value. It makes absolutely no sense for a company to drop their best selling model who likely is super profitable sharing parts with other cars b/c some non-owners on the internet hate it and won't buy it anyway.

Its like Apple throwing away the iPad mini b/c its not "desirable" meanwhile its selling like hotcakes.

The ES isn't even a cheap car, its a 38k-damn near 50k car.

As I detailed in the other thread, the ES is a profittable cash cow because the majority of people don't care about sportiness and higher grades of luxury and they therefore find the ES a good value. Those in the know, such as TRDFantasy--you know, the Lexus enthusiast whom you praised and agreed with so much in the other thread--look down on the ES, knowing the ES is not part of what makes Lexus desirable.The ES is not part of what makes Lexus desirable. It is what keeps Lexus profittable, in the short term. Now that its mission is complete after 24 years, it's time to take the next step and make every Lexus model based a premium platform and give every model a truly premium interior in order to truly separate the brand from Toyota, not allowing the Avalon and the likes to have the slightest chance to overshadow any of its lineup.

By the way I own a '02 ES300. It's comfortable, rides well and has served me well, but I just am not enthusiastic enough about the car to even talk about it. I'm just enthusiastic about the Lexus brand and want to see it keep moving forward.

I've also driven every ES offered so many times I could bore to death with the details and even today while I have no desire to buy it I understand why its so popular and why Lexus has done a good job keeping it near tops in class every generation.

Trust me I've seen the ES bashing for over a decade on the internet. As soon as you mention it every troll, 3 year old and internet expert brings up the "Camry". Then comes "FWD", I guess the ES has "Acura" syndrome in that aspect. Unlike them, Lexus never lost the plot with the ES and we are talking about hundreds of thousands of happy owners. Hell the ES bashing in person is the same "oh its a Camry with leather".

I will likely never buy an ES again, the car is not for me even as its gotten sportier. I still think it fits its role damn well in the Lexus lineup. For all the Avalon and Camry and Buick talk what you people are not saying or refuse to acknowledge is the ES has never been a better baby LS. You see Lexus has continued to make the ES a better baby LS every year with no regard to the very cars you all are posting about.

Your post is ridiculous, the ES is a fine automobile and deserves to be a Lexus. The ES out of the Lexus lineup would leave a serious gap and there is no way 5-7k people are going to suddenly buy a GS that is 10-25k more and a much smaller IS and if you and anyone here thinks they are all going to buy an Avalon you truly have no idea about the luxury market and the importance of that badge.

The bottom line is the ES is simply the auto internet punching bag and guess what, it will continue to kick *** in its segment so continue talking about something that is not going to happen.

Lose the cheap hard plastic center console. Upgrade the window switches to those in the 3IS, 4GS, GX. Someone put some insolation on those doors. Speaking of which, the doors don't even close well anymore. Lost that nice patented thud noise. They feel thin and flimsy also reminding me of the even more cheap glove box door. Even the Remote Touch vs the RX and GS's feels and looks (thinner design) is bad.

I'll say this, assembly is still Lexus like, but the materials are a slap in the face to someone spending $40+ grand on this car. They are something you would find on mainstream models. Lexus should be ashamed of this cost cutting. 2006 ES330 by far had the best fit and finish, assembly, and materials used. Design is subjective so that need not apply.

Interesting that you consider the ES a deserving Lexus while at the same time bringing up the "Acura syndrome", which you seem to love to bash on in many Acura-related threads, and yet the ES is in many ways like the Acura TL, being a more luxurious version of a mainstream FWD sedan.

The ES is a fine automobile, yes, for the price, and a deserving Lexus? Yes, because the ES has been part of Lexus since the beginning, so it has shaped what we've come to expect from Lexus. But the problem is that it now comes at the expense of a more deserving Lexus, the GS. Its existence has limited the possibilities of the GS spawning more variants because it's keeping the GS volume down. By cancelling the ES, the Lexus brand can then move forward by truly cutting its ties with Toyota models so a new level of expectation of the Lexus brand can be formed.

About that "gap" the cancellation of the ES will undoubtedly leave behind? Well, what do BMW and Mercedes do without a car like the ES? By introducing a more complete lineup, of course. The GS250, GS300h, GS200t, etc. will all become possible with the cancellation of the ES, filling the gap, just like the Germans who sell over 4000 5's and E's almost every month because of all the variants they have leaving no gap unfilled.

I bought my ES because it's a practical car I could afford at the time and I wanted a premium badge, but whenever I see the Internet "haters" bash on Lexus because of the ES, deep down I know they're right as the ES is what keeps Lexus from reaching the truly top tier status in the minds of the enthusiasts (same goes for Acura, for reasons I'm sure you can agree on), and I would love to have bought a GS200t if it had been available to me for around the same price at the time.

Edited b/c I LIED I AM NOT DONE!

Not good enough. I heard a rumor on the internet that some executive said they were going to cancel cars all together, and let the horse and buggy have the segment.

Please lock this thread. This is rubbish.

It might not be of interest to you but the spirited debate shows there is interest.

The Germans like Mercedes and BMW will be having fwd 4 cylinders in their lineups, are now offering 6 cylinders in their flagship sedans, and are dropping V8 options in the their mid sized sedans. Mercedes and BMW did not even offer V8's in their mid sized sedans until the late 80's/early 90's and they had low powered inexpensive 4 cylinders in their US lineups in the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's.

There will be no short term pain from dropping the ES, they will be dropping their best selling sedan and a car that makes up over 30% of Lexus sales, it will be a huge unnecessary loss that will never be absorbed by the IS or GS, guess they should get rid of the fwd camry/highlander based RX while they are at it because it "dilutes" the brand too, then Lexus will go from being one of the best selling luxury car makers in the US to being at the back, you get rid of the ES and RX, you lose over half or the bulk of Lexus sales. To me the CT dilutes the brand far more then the ES. Infiniti had a all rwd lineup and they still suffered from lack of sales or interest compared to the Germans or Lexus, Jaguar had a very good looking light all rwd/all V8 lineup and they sold/sell poorly in the US.

If Lexus wants to reach top tier status they should offer a V12 for the LS, and a sedan or coupe above the LS, that would do more then killing off very successful lower priced models they have always had in their lineup.

There is nothing wrong with the TL being based on a Accord platform either. The TL is actually more separate from a Accord then a ES is to a Camry as the TL always had a higher hp, higher tech, often bigger engine then the Accord sold at the same time and has offered unique powertrains like SH-AWD, 6 speed auto when Accord had 5 speed, etc where the ES normally has the same engine/hp/transmission as the Camry. Both cars are big sellers and should not be dropped to improve the brand

I vote no Lexus shouldn't cancel the ES! The world needs the entry level Luxury of the ES. My family has had the second generation and third Gen ES. Its a lot of luxury for a fair price, although it's an entry level car, it doesn't evoke that feeling while driving in it. The new one seems very up to par with luxury & amenities and with that new spindle grill dashing good looks, new buyers to the segment won't be disappointed IMO. But if it hinders Lexus' climb up the performance oriented F line ladder then I say the hell with it, take it to the back of the barn and concentrate on the new aggressive performance line up.

and Infinity will do away with the G sedan to sell more M 's.

CANCEL THE EARTH!! There is just way to much misinformation being thrown around multiple threads.

B/C you get more misinformation like below

The CT does not dilute the brand, it has been a huge success. It is their best selling car in Europe and in America it if the FIRST hatch from a luxury brand to sell well. The Germans tried for decades and failed each time to sell well. The CT has done a great job. Infiniti and Jaguar never had anything close to a full lineup and they have multiple issues on why they didn't sell well.


The TL is built alongside the Accord in the same plant in Ohio built by the same people. The Camry is built here and the ES is built in Japan. Thats all you need to know about how separate the two are. And while the ES continues to sell like hotcakes, the TL is now a sales disaster for 4 years.

I completely agree Honda and Toyota have proven a car based on the Accord/Camry for this segment is fine but Honda continues to base the RL/RLX on the Accord where Toyota builds an entirely new platform and car for the GS.