View Poll Results: Should Lexus cancel the ES?
Yes
18
20.45%
No
70
79.55%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll
Lexus to Cancel ES?
I'm sure I'm not alone.
I also feel the ES and GS are totally different cars.
Last edited by Joeb427; Mar 20, 2013 at 12:22 PM.
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Also:
And of course you don't hear the ES and the GS owners talking much about cross-shopping between the two--it's because the type of people buying the ES and the type of people buying the GS are minimally overlapping subsets of a larger set of people shopping for a "midsize luxury sedan". The choice is quite clear for either of them--those who value sportiness and higher grades of luxury would not consider the ES, and those who don't value these qualities, which happens to be the majority, would not consider the GS because the ES is there to meet 100% of their needs for less money already. This is the subset of people that would've bought the GS, which also meets 100% of their needs, if the ES were not presented to them as a choice to begin with. But since the ES is there, there's no reason for them to even consider getting the more expensive but no more valuable GS, and thus there's no cross-shopping between the two. And yet both of these two subsets of people would've cross-shopped the 5 and the E because that's all what BMW and Mercedes have got for them.Thanks.
Maybe you're right but I can't agree.I think the G37 and ES are cross shopped more than you think.
.
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That's why I used BMW and Mercedes as examples in all my earlier posts. They do not need something like the ES or the I in order to "fill the gap" between the 3 and the 5, and between the C and the E, in order to be successful in all of these models. And until they've fully built up their premium brand image they had resisted introducing models based on non-premium platforms here.
BMW and Mercedes have been enlarging and numbing their entry models, the 3 is now the size the 5 once was. The new C class is going to be larger with the CLA coming in at a lower price point to pick up some of the slack. Remember the ES used to exist in a vacuum, now it really doesn't with competitors from Buick, Lincoln, Hyundai, Cadillac with the lower package XTS models.
There is obviously a market in the US for large midsized to fullsize FWD near-luxury sedans. These buyers won't look at a BMW or Mercedes because those cars don't have a model they would be looking for. Toyota globally can fill that need with the Avalon, but without the ES you're going to loose 30% of all Lexus sales, thats going to hurt the brand, hurt the dealers. These people likely aren't going to buy a smaller, more expensive GS or IS, they're going to buy a Lincoln MKS, or a Hyundai Azera or Genesis, or a Buick Lacrosse.
Like I said, you are hung up on the snobbery that a "Lexus" shares a basic platform with a "Toyota". To ES buyers...they don't care.
You speak as if Lexus is still "growing their brand". Remember...Lexus outsells MB and BMW in the US. MB is developing cars like the CLA to compete with Lexus here. The market is different than it once was, you have luxury brands competing with mainstream brands, its a different world. To expect Lexus, the sales leader in the US to ditch a winning strategy and drop its most successful car, a car which acounts for 30% of all sales in its largest market, to take on an uncertain strategy that is adopted by companies that they outsell...I just don't see the logic.
As a "Lexus enthusiast" you may like the notion that "no Lexus shares a platform with a pedestrian Toyota" but as a shareholder I don't think you would like that notion too much.
Last edited by SW17LS; Mar 20, 2013 at 12:30 PM.
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MB and BMW don't have downmarket brands to develop platforms from. They certainly do share platforms between models.
BMW and Mercedes have been enlarging and numbing their entry models, the 3 is now the size the 5 once was. The new C class is going to be larger with the CLA coming in at a lower price point to pick up some of the slack. Remember the ES used to exist in a vacuum, now it really doesn't with competitors from Buick, Lincoln, Hyundai, Cadillac with the lower package XTS models.
There is obviously a market in the US for large midsized to fullsize FWD near-luxury sedans. These buyers won't look at a BMW or Mercedes because those cars don't have a model they would be looking for. Toyota globally can fill that need with the Avalon, but without the ES you're going to loose 30% of all Lexus sales, thats going to hurt the brand, hurt the dealers. These people likely aren't going to buy a smaller, more expensive GS or IS, they're going to buy a Lincoln MKS, or a Hyundai Azera or Genesis, or a Buick Lacrosse.
Like I said, you are hung up on the snobbery that a "Lexus" shares a basic platform with a "Toyota". To ES buyers...they don't care.
You speak as if Lexus is still "growing their brand". Remember...Lexus outsells MB and BMW in the US. MB is developing cars like the CLA to compete with Lexus here. The market is different than it once was, you have luxury brands competing with mainstream brands, its a different world. To expect Lexus, the sales leader in the US to ditch a winning strategy and drop its most successful car, a car which acounts for 30% of all sales in its largest market, to take on an uncertain strategy that is adopted by companies that they outsell...I just don't see the logic.
As a "Lexus enthusiast" you may like the notion that "no Lexus shares a platform with a pedestrian Toyota" but as a shareholder I don't think you would like that notion too much.
BMW and Mercedes have been enlarging and numbing their entry models, the 3 is now the size the 5 once was. The new C class is going to be larger with the CLA coming in at a lower price point to pick up some of the slack. Remember the ES used to exist in a vacuum, now it really doesn't with competitors from Buick, Lincoln, Hyundai, Cadillac with the lower package XTS models.
There is obviously a market in the US for large midsized to fullsize FWD near-luxury sedans. These buyers won't look at a BMW or Mercedes because those cars don't have a model they would be looking for. Toyota globally can fill that need with the Avalon, but without the ES you're going to loose 30% of all Lexus sales, thats going to hurt the brand, hurt the dealers. These people likely aren't going to buy a smaller, more expensive GS or IS, they're going to buy a Lincoln MKS, or a Hyundai Azera or Genesis, or a Buick Lacrosse.
Like I said, you are hung up on the snobbery that a "Lexus" shares a basic platform with a "Toyota". To ES buyers...they don't care.
You speak as if Lexus is still "growing their brand". Remember...Lexus outsells MB and BMW in the US. MB is developing cars like the CLA to compete with Lexus here. The market is different than it once was, you have luxury brands competing with mainstream brands, its a different world. To expect Lexus, the sales leader in the US to ditch a winning strategy and drop its most successful car, a car which acounts for 30% of all sales in its largest market, to take on an uncertain strategy that is adopted by companies that they outsell...I just don't see the logic.
As a "Lexus enthusiast" you may like the notion that "no Lexus shares a platform with a pedestrian Toyota" but as a shareholder I don't think you would like that notion too much.
As I've reiterated several times already, the ES has done its mission to grow Lexus to a certain level, but in order to advance to the next level they need to take the short-term pain and build the brand to be more like how BMW and Mercedes built theirs, by building all of their models on premium platforms until their brand image is high enough to afford the introduction of models based on non-premium platforms.
Last edited by ydooby; Mar 20, 2013 at 12:42 PM.
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People compare these cars to BMWs too. For instance, I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, I drove Audis, Lexus, BMWs, etc before I got the Jeep. Coworker of mine just traded his Audi in on a Hyundai Santa Fe, he was deciding at the end between the BMW X1 and the Santa Fe.
Why would Lexus want to cede this market, the FWD entry level sedan market, where their product is the benchmark (Buick reverse engineered 15 ES sedans when designing the Lacrosse) to competitors? If luxury car companies think they are above loosing customers to Buick and Hyundai, they are in for a rude surprise.
As I've reiterated several times already, the ES has done its mission to grow Lexus to a certain level, but in order to advance to the next level they need to take the short-term pain and build the brand to be more like how BMW and Mercedes built theirs, by keeping all of their model based on premium platforms until their brand image is high enough to afford the introduction of models based on non-premium platforms.
Your logic makes no sense. So they should cancel their top selling car because it shares a platform with several Toyota products...and wait until their "brand image is high enough" and then reintroduce models built on non-premium platforms?
If they are #1 in sales and brand desirability now...where do they go? Is there some level above the highest selling and most desirable I don't understand? Why does Lexus have to be "like BMW and Mercedes" to be successful?
If you are ashamed that your car shares a badge with an ES or RX and you want a vehicle that comes from a company that only uses "premium platforms". You should go buy a BMW or Mercedes.
Last edited by SW17LS; Mar 20, 2013 at 12:52 PM.
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Buick and Hyundai have moved upmarket to Lexus, Lexus hasn't moved downmarket to Buick and Hyundai. Like I said, the market is very different in the entry level luxury world than it once was.
People compare these cars to BMWs too. For instance, I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, I drove Audis, Lexus, BMWs, etc before I got the Jeep. Coworker of mine just traded his Audi in on a Hyundai Santa Fe, he was deciding at the end between the BMW X1 and the Santa Fe.
Why would Lexus want to cede this market, the FWD entry level sedan market, where their product is the benchmark (Buick reverse engineered 15 ES sedans when designing the Lacrosse) to competitors? If luxury car companies think they are above loosing customers to Buick and Hyundai, they are in for a rude surprise.
People compare these cars to BMWs too. For instance, I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, I drove Audis, Lexus, BMWs, etc before I got the Jeep. Coworker of mine just traded his Audi in on a Hyundai Santa Fe, he was deciding at the end between the BMW X1 and the Santa Fe.
Why would Lexus want to cede this market, the FWD entry level sedan market, where their product is the benchmark (Buick reverse engineered 15 ES sedans when designing the Lacrosse) to competitors? If luxury car companies think they are above loosing customers to Buick and Hyundai, they are in for a rude surprise.
But what is the next level? The "certain level" is sales dominance in the US. You speak as if they are a 3rd or 4th place brand. They are #1. #1 in sales, #1 in dependability, #1 in initial quality, and #1 in brand desirability. Thats a pretty big deal.
Your logic makes no sense. So they should cancel their top selling car because it shares a platform with several Toyota products...and wait until their "brand image is high enough" and then reintroduce models built on non-premium platforms?
If they are #1 in sales and brand desirability now...where do they go? Is there some level above the highest selling and most desirable I don't understand?
Your logic makes no sense. So they should cancel their top selling car because it shares a platform with several Toyota products...and wait until their "brand image is high enough" and then reintroduce models built on non-premium platforms?
If they are #1 in sales and brand desirability now...where do they go? Is there some level above the highest selling and most desirable I don't understand?
Perhaps you are mixing up sales volume with brand image/desirability aren't you? And Lexus has been #3 in sales, not #1, for quite a few years now, though that's not my point. The point of the "next level" is about a brand image high enough to be able to push high-end, high-margin, sexy models like verts, roadsters, performance and uber luxury variants in meaningful volumes. Right now a huge portion of Lexus's sales comes from the Buick/Hyundai-competing ES, and that says a lot about Lexus's current brand image level. Stop thinking in short-term profits and start thinking in the longer term of building up the brand to be a truly premium one, after which the brand can then rake in higher profit margins and rake in even higher profits in the longer run.
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Ydooby: Lexus was #1 in 2010 last, not that many years :-)
As to being premium, most of new models from BMW and Mercedes are at lower end spectrum, cheaper than ES and thats where the growth of all 3 germans is... it is not in high end, high end market is dropping steadily. Most of the future vehicles coming up are at lower end like CLA, A klass, B klass, X1, etc, etc.
As to being premium, most of new models from BMW and Mercedes are at lower end spectrum, cheaper than ES and thats where the growth of all 3 germans is... it is not in high end, high end market is dropping steadily. Most of the future vehicles coming up are at lower end like CLA, A klass, B klass, X1, etc, etc.
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#1 in brand desirability, really? Where does that stat come from? Perhaps you are mixing up sales volume with brand image/desirability aren't you?
Perhaps you are mixing up sales volume with brand image/desirability aren't you?
And Lexus has been #3 in sales, not #1, for quite a few years now
The point of the "next level" is about a brand image high enough to be able to push high-end, high-margin, sexy models like verts, roadsters, performance and uber luxury variants in meaningful volumes. Right now a huge portion of Lexus's sales comes from the Buick/Hyundai-competing ES, and that says a lot about Lexus's current brand image level. Stop thinking in short-term profits and start thinking in the longer term of building up the brand to be a truly premium one, after which the brand can then rake in higher profit margins and rake in even higher profits in the longer run.
What Lexus is finally learning is that you need to have those higher end cache vehicles in order to strengthen the brand, hence the LFA, and the IS-F. The way for them to go about doing what you want them to do however is not to cancel models that account for 65% of their sales, the ES and RX. If they did that, they would have no money to R&D those vehicles you want them to R&D.
Have you ever owned a business? You need the bread and butter in order to be able to provide the cream of the crop.
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I don't think I'd want to be the guy sitting in the meeting with Lexus Division execs who says "my recommendation is to scrap the ES. I know we've sold 24,000 of the two variations in the past 4 months in NA alone, but I think we can make up that volume with our other models".
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Maybe you were looking at a different study that I'm not aware of. Please link if so.https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...on-survey.html
Sales volume dipped due to the earthquake/tsunami in Japan cutting off supply. Sales figures are back up, and unless I am mistaken Lexus has regained the top spot, as Toyota has.
You don't understand. Avalon sales don't help Lexus. Lexus independently needs a certain sales volume to survive, their dealerships need a certain sales and service volume. Their R&D comes out of the divisions own profits. If you drop the ES and RX thats 65% of all Lexus sales. Even if those sales all went to Toyota, that still hurts Lexus.
No company makes their money and volume off of high-end sexy vehicles, including BMW and Mercedes. They have a more diverse lineup and yes higher priced models...but why do you think they brought out the 1 series, and the X1? At Benz, why the C class hatchback and why the FWD CLA?
What Lexus is finally learning is that you need to have those higher end cache vehicles in order to strengthen the brand, hence the LFA, and the IS-F. The way for them to go about doing what you want them to do however is not to cancel models that account for 65% of their sales, the ES and RX. If they did that, they would have no money to R&D those vehicles you want them to R&D.
Have you ever owned a business? You need the bread and butter in order to be able to provide the cream of the crop.
No company makes their money and volume off of high-end sexy vehicles, including BMW and Mercedes. They have a more diverse lineup and yes higher priced models...but why do you think they brought out the 1 series, and the X1? At Benz, why the C class hatchback and why the FWD CLA?
What Lexus is finally learning is that you need to have those higher end cache vehicles in order to strengthen the brand, hence the LFA, and the IS-F. The way for them to go about doing what you want them to do however is not to cancel models that account for 65% of their sales, the ES and RX. If they did that, they would have no money to R&D those vehicles you want them to R&D.
Have you ever owned a business? You need the bread and butter in order to be able to provide the cream of the crop.
Last edited by ydooby; Mar 20, 2013 at 03:38 PM.
I don't think I'd want to be the guy sitting in the meeting with Lexus Division execs who says "my recommendation is to scrap the ES. I know we've sold 24,000 of the two variations in the past 4 months in NA alone, but I think we can make up that volume with our other models".
As Trump says....you're fired!
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Read some car history books. BMW and Mercedes actually have sold downmarket cars for decades, BMW survived bankruptcy selling downmarket cars. In Europe BMW and Mercedes are like GM there since most are low spec volume cars. Mercedes has had the A class around for a decade now and their C-class hatch flopped here where the CT has been a success.
There is no LAW that states a luxury car lineup has to resemble the German way of the 1990s
3
5
7
It is 2013 look at BMW today
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
With coupes, 4 door coupes, hatches, wagons etc. They realized that people want choice. The ES gives people choice.
Quite frankly the ES was AHEAD of its time since now we see the Germans and everyone else now putting models in niches to fill gaps. Lexus has had the ES in this amazing niche for sometime and been a grand slam success with it. Lexus has managed to do well with the IS/ES/GS with the HS the car that didn't fit.
Do you think Audi is not prestigious or embarrassing since they sell a ton of FWD cars? What about when the A6 was based off the Passat? Do you even know that or you just here to crap on the ES as it seems? You can get a FWD A8 in the U.K, its the best selling A8 and it hasn't harmed image. The A6 here for 42k, the price of an ES, has FWD, a CVT and a 210hp 4 cylinder. I don't see you or ANYONE on the internet trashing that car.
Brand perception? You missed these, when the crappy ES was around
lol at one data point again.Do you know historically Lexus perception has been very high. You start a thread and repeat the one time Lexus fairs poor. http://www.marketwire.com/press-rele...rs-1744495.htm
Audi, Lexus and BMW Triumph as Leading High-End Auto Brands by Wealthy U.S. Drivers
NEW YORK, NY--(Marketwire - Jan 10, 2013) - U.S. luxury automobile consumers rank Audi highest in the 2013 Luxury Consumer Experience (LCEI) survey conducted by the independent and objective New York-based Luxury Institute. LCEI scores (1-10) are averages of wealthy respondents' ratings across ten areas of consideration, including evaluations of the vehicles they own or lease, their dealership experience, and their overall brand buying and ownership experience.
In addition to earning the highest LCEI score (8.36) of the ten brands surveyed, Audi ranks first for the consistently superior design and quality materials of its cars. In addition, Audi's dealership staff is recognized for being the most trustworthy and knowledgeable. Audi also leads other carmakers in terms of future repeat purchase intent, with 96% of respondents saying they would consider buying or leasing an Audi again based on their experience with the brand.
Lexus ranks closely behind Audi with an overall score of 8.34, based largely on the dealership experience and its positive representation of the brand. The Japanese automaker earns top honors for superior sales and service experiences, respectful dealership personnel, and long term relationship building. BMW (8.27) and Mercedes-Benz (8.06) rank third and fourth, respectively.
"Wealthy consumers' perceptions of brand experience encompass everything from the physical quality of the car to interactions with the sales and service departments at dealerships," says Luxury Institute CEO Milton Pedraza. "Especially at the high-end, luxury automakers must be aware of how people and products combine to affect a brand's reputation."
Survey participants reported $2.4 million average net worth and $283,000 average income.
About Luxury Institute (www.LuxuryInstitute.com)
The Luxury Institute is the objective and independent global voice of the high net-worth consumer. The Institute conducts extensive and actionable research with wealthy consumers about their behaviors and attitudes on customer experience best practices. In addition, we work closely with top-tier luxury brands to successfully transform their organizational cultures into more profitable customer-centric enterprises. Our Luxury CRM Culture consulting process leverages our fact-based research and enables luxury brands to dramatically Outbehave as well as Outperform their competition. The Luxury Institute also operates LuxuryBoard.com, a membership-based online research portal, and the Luxury CRM Association, a membership organization dedicated to building customer-centric luxury enterprises.
NEW YORK, NY--(Marketwire - Jan 10, 2013) - U.S. luxury automobile consumers rank Audi highest in the 2013 Luxury Consumer Experience (LCEI) survey conducted by the independent and objective New York-based Luxury Institute. LCEI scores (1-10) are averages of wealthy respondents' ratings across ten areas of consideration, including evaluations of the vehicles they own or lease, their dealership experience, and their overall brand buying and ownership experience.
In addition to earning the highest LCEI score (8.36) of the ten brands surveyed, Audi ranks first for the consistently superior design and quality materials of its cars. In addition, Audi's dealership staff is recognized for being the most trustworthy and knowledgeable. Audi also leads other carmakers in terms of future repeat purchase intent, with 96% of respondents saying they would consider buying or leasing an Audi again based on their experience with the brand.
Lexus ranks closely behind Audi with an overall score of 8.34, based largely on the dealership experience and its positive representation of the brand. The Japanese automaker earns top honors for superior sales and service experiences, respectful dealership personnel, and long term relationship building. BMW (8.27) and Mercedes-Benz (8.06) rank third and fourth, respectively.
"Wealthy consumers' perceptions of brand experience encompass everything from the physical quality of the car to interactions with the sales and service departments at dealerships," says Luxury Institute CEO Milton Pedraza. "Especially at the high-end, luxury automakers must be aware of how people and products combine to affect a brand's reputation."
Survey participants reported $2.4 million average net worth and $283,000 average income.
About Luxury Institute (www.LuxuryInstitute.com)
The Luxury Institute is the objective and independent global voice of the high net-worth consumer. The Institute conducts extensive and actionable research with wealthy consumers about their behaviors and attitudes on customer experience best practices. In addition, we work closely with top-tier luxury brands to successfully transform their organizational cultures into more profitable customer-centric enterprises. Our Luxury CRM Culture consulting process leverages our fact-based research and enables luxury brands to dramatically Outbehave as well as Outperform their competition. The Luxury Institute also operates LuxuryBoard.com, a membership-based online research portal, and the Luxury CRM Association, a membership organization dedicated to building customer-centric luxury enterprises.
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^Whatever. Keep the ES. Just don't be frustrated over why there's no GS-F and why Lexus has to keep limiting options/package variety because they're afraid of making their cars too expensive for what their brand image can command.
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LOL, what this really comes down to is snobbery. Its cool on the forums to bash on the ES because its "not a real Lexus" blah blah blah. The bottom line is as I have said, without the ES and RX...you would have no IS. No GS. Certainly no LFA. The LS would not have been able to be moved upmarket (remember, when it came out it was cheap) because the entry level Lexus buyer would not have had the ES to fill the need. These are the volume cash cow vehicles for Lexus. Unless they are going to dramatically downsize the brand, dealer footprint, etc, they simply could not handle the loss in sales volume and maintain the presence they have now. Bear in mind the average ES price is probably around $41k. Average GS price is probably around $50-52k. How cheap can a 4 cyl GS really be? I don't think its reasonable to expect that Lexus can offer a smaller vehicle for more money to a buyer who doesn't care about handling or "exclusive platforms", and sell as many cars. That buyer is going to wind up in a Buick Lucerne, or Lincoln MKS. Perhaps in an Avalon, but even if every Lexus ES buyer bought an Avalon, that wouldn't help Lexus. You're still going to loose a huge number of customers for the brand, for the dealer, the brand would go from 1st place to third.
You guys talk as if the ES is just a rebadged Camry, well that hasn't been true since the ES250. The car now shares the same basic platform and powertrain with the Avalon, but dimensions are different, every body panel and interior panel are different. Driving dynamics and ride are different. I think its awful what they have done to the car in terms of decontenting and cost cutting, but the fact remains:
The ES is Lexus Its the only car other than the LS that is original to the brand. Its hugely successful, hugely profitable, its in an all new iteration that Lexus invested a lot on, including moving it to a different platform and development of a hybrid variant. Regardless of what Motor Trend says, they are not going to can it now. Regardless of how superior it makes you all feel that you don't have an ES, the ES fills its job. Look at me, I became enamnoured with Lexus because of my Dad's LS. So, I bought what was as similar and what I could afford, an ES. Drove it for 7 years...bought another one. Now I've moved up to the GS. Now that I'm here, I'm not going back, I'l drive the GS and then maybe wind up in an LS of my own.
Thats the whole point of entry level models.
You guys talk as if the ES is just a rebadged Camry, well that hasn't been true since the ES250. The car now shares the same basic platform and powertrain with the Avalon, but dimensions are different, every body panel and interior panel are different. Driving dynamics and ride are different. I think its awful what they have done to the car in terms of decontenting and cost cutting, but the fact remains:
The ES is Lexus Its the only car other than the LS that is original to the brand. Its hugely successful, hugely profitable, its in an all new iteration that Lexus invested a lot on, including moving it to a different platform and development of a hybrid variant. Regardless of what Motor Trend says, they are not going to can it now. Regardless of how superior it makes you all feel that you don't have an ES, the ES fills its job. Look at me, I became enamnoured with Lexus because of my Dad's LS. So, I bought what was as similar and what I could afford, an ES. Drove it for 7 years...bought another one. Now I've moved up to the GS. Now that I'm here, I'm not going back, I'l drive the GS and then maybe wind up in an LS of my own.
Thats the whole point of entry level models.
Only on CL, would we have people trying to have a serious discussion from a supposed ES owner that the ES which is BY FAR the best selling luxury car from Asia from ANY brand for the past 25 years and has created its how heritage and fanbase should be canceled based on a ridiculous rumor on a thread started where the O.P actually posts its garbage.
The ES has been around 25 years for now 6 generations, a remarkable feat considering some of the competition changes names and cars seemingly every month. I am quite unsure of such a successful car can be seen as a bad thing for Lexus.