View Poll Results: Should Lexus cancel the ES?
Yes
18
20.45%
No
70
79.55%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll
Lexus to Cancel ES?
03-04-12, 04:42 PM
#1
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Why doesn't Lexus cancel the ES model?
IMO the Lexus ES is not a true Lexus and should be cancelled. I want Lexus to get away from all their products tied to Toyotas that are just rebadged with better interiors.
1) Brand Image would be much better if Lexus didn't have a car that uses the same Engine and Chassis as a Camry!
2) Not enough differentiation between the GS and ES. The Lexus GS will never sell well bec its main competition is the ES right next to it in the showroom. The average Joe doesn't care about RWD/FWD but about price. ES is same size, has same features for LESS $$$$$. I guarantee GS sales will suffer once the new ES is released later this year. It's silly to sell 2 cars of the same size for similar price!
3) If they cancel it, 90% of ES buyers will remain with Lexus and just buy the GS.
Bring over the GS250 with a starting price of high 30s to low 40s.
4) Lexus can use the resources (R&D and marketing dollars) spent on the ES, to develop other segments which they are lacking in - such as COUPES, F Models or more HYBRIDS. OR they can just put all that $$$$$ into 1 model - the GS, and make it GREAT!
5) Yes the ES is a nice car but its still based on plain 20k Camry. With the new and improved Avalon coming soon, Lexus/Toyota has too many models targeting the same buyer. The GS can't build a solid following because of this.
1) Brand Image would be much better if Lexus didn't have a car that uses the same Engine and Chassis as a Camry!
2) Not enough differentiation between the GS and ES. The Lexus GS will never sell well bec its main competition is the ES right next to it in the showroom. The average Joe doesn't care about RWD/FWD but about price. ES is same size, has same features for LESS $$$$$. I guarantee GS sales will suffer once the new ES is released later this year. It's silly to sell 2 cars of the same size for similar price!
3) If they cancel it, 90% of ES buyers will remain with Lexus and just buy the GS.
Bring over the GS250 with a starting price of high 30s to low 40s.4) Lexus can use the resources (R&D and marketing dollars) spent on the ES, to develop other segments which they are lacking in - such as COUPES, F Models or more HYBRIDS. OR they can just put all that $$$$$ into 1 model - the GS, and make it GREAT!
5) Yes the ES is a nice car but its still based on plain 20k Camry. With the new and improved Avalon coming soon, Lexus/Toyota has too many models targeting the same buyer. The GS can't build a solid following because of this.
03-04-12, 04:55 PM
#3
IMO the Lexus ES is not a true Lexus and should be cancelled. I want Lexus to get away from all their products tied to Toyotas that are just rebadged with better interiors.
1) Brand Image would be much better if Lexus didn't have a car that uses the same Engine and Chassis as a Camry!
2) Not enough differentiation between the GS and ES. The Lexus GS will never sell well bec its main competition is the ES right next to it in the showroom. The average Joe doesn't care about RWD/FWD but about price. ES is same size, has same features for LESS $$$$$. I guarantee GS sales will suffer once the new ES is released later this year. It's silly to sell 2 cars of the same size for similar price!
3) If they cancel it, 90% of ES buyers will remain with Lexus and just buy the GS. Bring over the GS250 with a starting price of high 30s to low 40s.
4) Lexus can use the resources (R&D and marketing dollars) spent on the ES, to develop other segments which they are lacking in - such as COUPES, F Models or more HYBRIDS. OR they can just put all that $$$$$ into 1 model - the GS, and make it GREAT!
5) Yes the ES is a nice car but its still based on plain 20k Camry. With the new and improved Avalon coming soon, Lexus/Toyota has too many models targeting the same buyer. The GS can't build a solid following because of this.
1) Brand Image would be much better if Lexus didn't have a car that uses the same Engine and Chassis as a Camry!
2) Not enough differentiation between the GS and ES. The Lexus GS will never sell well bec its main competition is the ES right next to it in the showroom. The average Joe doesn't care about RWD/FWD but about price. ES is same size, has same features for LESS $$$$$. I guarantee GS sales will suffer once the new ES is released later this year. It's silly to sell 2 cars of the same size for similar price!
3) If they cancel it, 90% of ES buyers will remain with Lexus and just buy the GS.
Bring over the GS250 with a starting price of high 30s to low 40s.4) Lexus can use the resources (R&D and marketing dollars) spent on the ES, to develop other segments which they are lacking in - such as COUPES, F Models or more HYBRIDS. OR they can just put all that $$$$$ into 1 model - the GS, and make it GREAT!
5) Yes the ES is a nice car but its still based on plain 20k Camry. With the new and improved Avalon coming soon, Lexus/Toyota has too many models targeting the same buyer. The GS can't build a solid following because of this.
So what your suggesting is Lexus get Rid of the RX - Highlander, GX - 4Runner, LX - Land Cruiser, HS - camry powertrain, CT - Prius powertrain. So basically you want Lexus to be the IS, GS, LS, and LFA ok...
03-04-12, 05:13 PM
#4
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
The GS is a better car by far BUT it suffers because the ES has similar qualities at a cheaper price. What is the point? Lexus is only hurting themselves here.
All the ES sales will not disappear - those customers will buy the GS. Just like 5-7k sales go to E Class and 5 Series each month.
03-04-12, 05:17 PM
#5
Yes I know its a BIG seller and its a nice car, BUT the engineering from the beginning was based on Toyota philosophy not Lexus. I don't mind the 2 brands sharing parts, technology, etc. but their Philosophy and Purpose need to be DIFFERENT.
The GS is a better car by far BUT it suffers because the ES has similar qualities at a cheaper price. What is the point? Lexus is only hurting themselves here.
All the ES sales will not disappear - those customers will buy the GS. Just like 5-7k sales go to E Class and 5 Series each month.
The GS is a better car by far BUT it suffers because the ES has similar qualities at a cheaper price. What is the point? Lexus is only hurting themselves here.
All the ES sales will not disappear - those customers will buy the GS. Just like 5-7k sales go to E Class and 5 Series each month.
The GS doesn't appeal to most people who buy an ES.Something like 65% of buyers were age 56 and up.
03-04-12, 05:21 PM
#7
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Smooth, Refined, Quiet, Plush... If that doesn't define a Lexus I don't know what is..
So what your suggesting is Lexus get Rid of the RX - Highlander, GX - 4Runner, LX - Land Cruiser, HS - camry powertrain, CT - Prius powertrain. So basically you want Lexus to be the IS, GS, LS, and LFA ok...
So what your suggesting is Lexus get Rid of the RX - Highlander, GX - 4Runner, LX - Land Cruiser, HS - camry powertrain, CT - Prius powertrain. So basically you want Lexus to be the IS, GS, LS, and LFA ok...
They can share technology and power trains for cost efficiency purposes but the thought process of each BRAND has to be unique. The decision making needs to be separate. Lexus is too slow to change and too conservative.
BMW does this well with their brands - BMW, MINI, Rolls Royce.
GM not so well.
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03-04-12, 05:23 PM
#8
Boardroom Thug
1. If you are worried about brand image to the point of the getting rid of the ES, you would keep the ES and clean up some other things within their brand that need help.
2. Owning several GS's in the past, the ES was never on my radar, to you they are the same, in reality they are not
3. You are worried about brand image but want to bring a "cheap gs" to market, that does not work so well for many.... BMW has done it in the past, like the 528i, and every time I see one I think it’s a shame they let that car hit the road along with a 550i sport........
4. ES is a hot seller for them, they are not going to recreate the magic of a top seller by putting resources into other platforms, and no the GS does not become the new top seller......
5. Welcome to platform sharing, if that is the “same car” to you, you may as well kill 90% of the car OEM’s out there.
To me the ES has always been the entry level, luxo, baller on the budget car. Not small, not large, not sport, just a nice riding car, made with nice materials, from a high quality manufacturer at a reasonable price.
2. Owning several GS's in the past, the ES was never on my radar, to you they are the same, in reality they are not
3. You are worried about brand image but want to bring a "cheap gs" to market, that does not work so well for many.... BMW has done it in the past, like the 528i, and every time I see one I think it’s a shame they let that car hit the road along with a 550i sport........
4. ES is a hot seller for them, they are not going to recreate the magic of a top seller by putting resources into other platforms, and no the GS does not become the new top seller......
5. Welcome to platform sharing, if that is the “same car” to you, you may as well kill 90% of the car OEM’s out there.
To me the ES has always been the entry level, luxo, baller on the budget car. Not small, not large, not sport, just a nice riding car, made with nice materials, from a high quality manufacturer at a reasonable price.
03-04-12, 05:26 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
The ES being picked on b/c "OMG ITZ CAMRY BASED AND NOT SPORTY" is old and tired at this point. I'm sorry but this rational makes little sense since the ES is usually the top 1-3 selling luxury sedans. The ES has been the best selling Asian luxury sedan most years since 1992. The ES has won countless awards. The ES has a core audience that love the vehicle for its attributes. Hell my first Lexus was an ES, the original entry level Lexus so without it I might not be here.
IMO the Lexus ES is not a true Lexus and should be cancelled. I want Lexus to get away from all their products tied to Toyotas that are just rebadged with better interiors.
(well then A LOT of cars are not TRUE cars then. When those FWD BMWs come then what, will we get a thread about it?)
1) Brand Image would be much better if Lexus didn't have a car that uses the same Engine and Chassis as a Camry!
Brand image would not improve b/c the same people hating on the ES every second of their lives wouldn't buy a Lexus anyway. The ES HELPS Lexus, its a quality car, arguably best in class and all the competition aims for it. Should I list all the cars that are expensive that share chassis and engines with lesser cars? You would puke
2) Not enough differentiation between the GS and ES. The Lexus GS will never sell well bec its main competition is the ES right next to it in the showroom. The average Joe doesn't care about RWD/FWD but about price. ES is same size, has same features for LESS $$$$$. I guarantee GS sales will suffer once the new ES is released later this year. It's silly to sell 2 cars of the same size for similar price!
The ES is the volume car, Lexus knows the GS will not sell in those quantities and has a separate sales goal for the GS. Why should Lexus do what everyone else is doing? The strategy works for the most part. The ES won't drive anything close to the GS, it never has. Should they kill the IS too since the ES is the same price?
3) If they cancel it, 90% of ES buyers will remain with Lexus and just buy the GS. Bring over the GS250 with a starting price of high 30s to low 40s.
Complete speculation. They might go something else. You do realize the ES starts at 37k and ends around 47k. The GS STARTS at 47k-62k loaded. A GS 250 would likely start around 45k, 2k less than a GS 350.
4) Lexus can use the resources (R&D and marketing dollars) spent on the ES, to develop other segments which they are lacking in - such as COUPES, F Models or more HYBRIDS. OR they can just put all that $$$$$ into 1 model - the GS, and make it GREAT!
They are expanding, they have said coupes are coming. They don't need to chancel the ES to do this. Yes Lexus is moving slowly in this area.
5) Yes the ES is a nice car but its still based on plain 20k Camry. With the new and improved Avalon coming soon, Lexus/Toyota has too many models targeting the same buyer. The GS can't build a solid following because of this.
Let me put this in perspective for you. Your 335 M sport is based on a lowly 318 or 320 base model 3 series sedan. The M3 which costs 2-3 times the base 3 series has also based on that lowly car. Why is that not an issue in regards to the price spread? The A6 was based on the Passat, people didn't beat up the A6 (a car higher than the ES) for that. The E class coupe is actually based on the C-class coupe, again no one beats that car up for it.
The Camry platform is a proven solid platform for the ES, RX etc just like the FM platform is great for Nissan, Zeta for GM, etc etc.
(well then A LOT of cars are not TRUE cars then. When those FWD BMWs come then what, will we get a thread about it?)
1) Brand Image would be much better if Lexus didn't have a car that uses the same Engine and Chassis as a Camry!
Brand image would not improve b/c the same people hating on the ES every second of their lives wouldn't buy a Lexus anyway. The ES HELPS Lexus, its a quality car, arguably best in class and all the competition aims for it. Should I list all the cars that are expensive that share chassis and engines with lesser cars? You would puke
2) Not enough differentiation between the GS and ES. The Lexus GS will never sell well bec its main competition is the ES right next to it in the showroom. The average Joe doesn't care about RWD/FWD but about price. ES is same size, has same features for LESS $$$$$. I guarantee GS sales will suffer once the new ES is released later this year. It's silly to sell 2 cars of the same size for similar price!
The ES is the volume car, Lexus knows the GS will not sell in those quantities and has a separate sales goal for the GS. Why should Lexus do what everyone else is doing? The strategy works for the most part. The ES won't drive anything close to the GS, it never has. Should they kill the IS too since the ES is the same price?
3) If they cancel it, 90% of ES buyers will remain with Lexus and just buy the GS.
Bring over the GS250 with a starting price of high 30s to low 40s.Complete speculation. They might go something else. You do realize the ES starts at 37k and ends around 47k. The GS STARTS at 47k-62k loaded. A GS 250 would likely start around 45k, 2k less than a GS 350.
4) Lexus can use the resources (R&D and marketing dollars) spent on the ES, to develop other segments which they are lacking in - such as COUPES, F Models or more HYBRIDS. OR they can just put all that $$$$$ into 1 model - the GS, and make it GREAT!
They are expanding, they have said coupes are coming. They don't need to chancel the ES to do this. Yes Lexus is moving slowly in this area.
5) Yes the ES is a nice car but its still based on plain 20k Camry. With the new and improved Avalon coming soon, Lexus/Toyota has too many models targeting the same buyer. The GS can't build a solid following because of this.
Let me put this in perspective for you. Your 335 M sport is based on a lowly 318 or 320 base model 3 series sedan. The M3 which costs 2-3 times the base 3 series has also based on that lowly car. Why is that not an issue in regards to the price spread? The A6 was based on the Passat, people didn't beat up the A6 (a car higher than the ES) for that. The E class coupe is actually based on the C-class coupe, again no one beats that car up for it.
The Camry platform is a proven solid platform for the ES, RX etc just like the FM platform is great for Nissan, Zeta for GM, etc etc.
03-04-12, 05:32 PM
#10
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Joeb427 - Why would the GS not appeal to old people??? Its more comfortable, luxurious, and better built than an ES.
Most people that buy an E Class are OLD, not sure why GS will not work for them.
Allen K - GX is truck based SUV, RX is a crossover and has no direct competition within Lexus models, so HELL NO they should not cancel it.
Plus there is clear price difference between GX and RX.
Most people that buy an E Class are OLD, not sure why GS will not work for them.
Allen K - GX is truck based SUV, RX is a crossover and has no direct competition within Lexus models, so HELL NO they should not cancel it.
Plus there is clear price difference between GX and RX.
03-04-12, 05:40 PM
#11
IMO the Lexus ES is not a true Lexus and should be cancelled
Brand Image would be much better if Lexus didn't have a car that uses the same Engine and Chassis as a Camry!
Not enough differentiation between the GS and ES. The Lexus GS will never sell well bec its main competition is the ES right next to it in the showroom
The GS can't build a solid following because of this.
Last edited by trukn1; 03-04-12 at 05:46 PM.
03-04-12, 05:43 PM
#12
Joeb427 - Why would the GS not appeal to old people??? Its more comfortable, luxurious, and better built than an ES.
Most people that buy an E Class are OLD, not sure why GS will not work for them.
Allen K - GX is truck based SUV, RX is a crossover and has no direct competition within Lexus models, so HELL NO they should not cancel it.
Plus there is clear price difference between GX and RX.
Most people that buy an E Class are OLD, not sure why GS will not work for them.
Allen K - GX is truck based SUV, RX is a crossover and has no direct competition within Lexus models, so HELL NO they should not cancel it.
Plus there is clear price difference between GX and RX.
An E Class isn't sporty.
03-04-12, 05:49 PM
#13
Lexus Champion
In addition to all of the other rational, from and dollars and cents standpoint the ES isn't going anywhere. The current gen has sold around 250,000 cars since it came out as an '07. It would be a tough sell to get Lexus to just "cancel" it..
