I wouldn't mind if the ES was cancelled. It's the oddball in the lineup.

 

Which older ES are you referring to? The 1-4Gen models (before 2006) generally had a soft, non-sporting ride, but the 5Gen firmed it up some with lower-profile tires. The new 6Gen model keeps the lower-profile tires, and also seems to have added some more suspension stiffness (the Drive-Mode-selector **** alters the drivetrain-response but not the suspension's). I reviewed a non-hybrid 2013 model, but haven't driven a hybrid yet. The specs, in general, show the same suspension/tires for both hybrid and non-hybrid models, but, on the hybrid, the additional weight of the heavy battery-pack sitting right over the rear-suspension may (?) affect how it responds a little....I wouldn't know without specifically trying that model.


Have you tried out the new model yourself? It may not be my cup of tea, but you might like it.
If so, fire away.

 

I agree, Paul. The old "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" cliche in the auto-industry is long-gone, particularly with excellent though limited-run vehicles like the LF-A with a very small production total.



I think that's part of this thread's main issue, and how we are discussing it......is the current 6-Gen ES actually what Lexus is known for, and is it a real advancement from the 5Gen model? Methinks not on both counts.

 

http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/hybrid/

I'm afraid I don't understand. I can configure one on the website, and I've seen them in showrooms. How do you figure he US doesn't get the GS hybrid?

 

The new GS Hybrid is on the Lexus American web-site, Paul. Mike, of course, also owns one of the older ones.

http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/hybrid/

 

nope... taxes are based on fuel consumption and price so ES300h would do great, plus GS450h is already 50% more expensive.

Essentially, just like in US, $40k ES300h is a lot more acceptable to pockets than $60k GS450h.

And I see a lot of new A6's 2.0 TDIs around :-).

GS300h is coming but it is still more expensive car than ES in general... some people dont want to pay extra for RWD and taxes here make the difference $20k. Would you pay $20k extra for GS300h over ES300h?

I dont understand the thinking really, if MB and Audi can do big FWD numbers in Europe, so can lexus... dont need to be "bigger pope than pope" as we say around here :-)

 

Yes please cancel the ES. The Avalon is nicer than it for pity's sake. The materials used are so unbefitting a Lexus its slap in consumer's faces.

Scrap the ES, and offer a smaller turbo 4 in the GS to lower base price and compete toe to toe with the Germans. IS, 3, C, A4. GS, 5, E, A6. LS, 7, S, A8. That's all you need. You don't need the odd duck ES.

The build quality in the new GS is miles better than the ES. Want more comfort? Then add a comfort setting to the GS's Drive mode select.

 

But what if Lexus will make a 4 cylinder GS300h for Europe? Should be pretty affordable I think.

 

I agree with these statements. I had two ES's, a 2003 and a 2010. Once I drove the 2013 and experienced all the cost cutting to the interior quality and features, I decided it was time to upgrade to the GS. I'm over the moon in love with my GS.

My 2003 was without a doubt a higher quality vehicle inside than my 2010. The 2010 won on features, the 03 had a manual tilt steering wheel, no smog sensor in the HVAC, AFS in the 2010, keyless entry and start, etc. Material quality was much better though. I think my 2010 rode and drove better than my 2003 as well.

When I drove the 2013 however I came to the conclusion that this was just no longer a car where you got a Lexus feel and experience at the price of a high end Camry or Avalon. It no longer felt like a "lot of car for the money". HOWEVER, they do sell. I see a lot of 2013 ES's on the road.

As for Lexus dropping it, I don't see that. Without the ES and RX, we wouldn't have Lexus.

Now, you could come out with a 4cyl GS a'la the 528, I think thats why BMW outsells the GS so much, midsized sales are split between the ES and GS whereas at BMW they only have one option. You see a lot of older women driving 528s on base wheels and things. at Lexus those buyers get the ES.

Main issue with the GS is rear seat room compared to the ES. The GS is probably worst in class in this regard, the A6, E class, certainly the 5 series all have more room back there. An ES buyer who doesn't care about the performance and handling of the GS could be lost to a competitor over passenger room.

Anyways, why would they phase the ES out right after a complete and total redesign, platform change, hybrid model addition? Makes no sense. Not gonna happen.

 

The competition is also a lot heavier than the GS. Namely the 5 Series and it's 400lb weight gain over the E60.

The GS is 190.7in, BMW at 193.1in, Audi at 193.9in, Infiniti M at 194.7in. Which explains why the GS weighs less and feels more spry, but also gives up leg room.

 

yes, as i said, $20k difference at least between ES300h and GS300h in pricing (in Europe) :-).

I say let the customers decide. They have expanded sales of 2013 ES to new areas of world where it never sold before.

Quality wise, base A6's are not of higher quality at all compared to ES. I have been in so many, and silver painted plastics are everywhere. Maybe A6 3.0 TDI Quattro Tiptronic is another world, but these days A6 2.0 TDI FWD Base sells better.

 

I agree!

I have been preaching about CANCELLING the ES for sometime now, finally other people have seen the light.

Again - I guarantee if there was no ES, the current GS would sell over 4,000 units/month EASILY!

Plus bring the GS300, GS300h, GS460, GS-F, GS coupe, GS 4drCoupe, etc.
Lexus should be MAXIMIZING and LEVERAGING the best engineered CHASSIS in their lineup, not peddling a Camry based ES.

 

doh, was thinking of the gsh f-sport i guess, which isn't available in the u.s., but is in europe.

 

This is exactly my point. The buyer who is interested in an ES would take the weight gain for the space gain. So don't automatically assume an ES buyer would buy a cheaper 4Cyl GS.

And they wouldn't sell the what, 6k a month ES's they sell? Sounds like a loosing proposition to me from a business point of view.

Thats why its great to have options.

 

While it is super popular to crap on lexus and the ES in particular what brand in their right mind is going to cancel such a model? We are talking about not just the best selling sedan for Lexus but for all Asian luxury brands. Hate on the ES all you want but it gets the job done, has a core market and has always fared well in comparisons.

Do you all realize the Germans don't send us all their offerings so not sure why the ES not being in all markets is even an issue. You sell to where you think you can.

With Mercedes bringing a FWD CLA in the same price park as a RWD C-class clearly Mercedes feels they can sell them much as Lexus has done with the ES/IS.

Dropping the ES won't help the GS, the GS needs more engine options, a coupe, a F model, a higher MPG hybrid before even thinking about canning an ES.

We don't like in the 1990s where everything was 3/5/7 and ES/GS/LS and C/E/S. The luxury market is vastly different in offerings and they have proven that they can sell different models and some might clash but they still do okay.

Its just more negative Nancy talk. People are real good about crapping on Lexus but not talking about the positive news or articles.