We are very very happy with our GS F-sport with red leather, Heads up Display, Dynamic Rear Steer and whatever else it has. Lexus has been listening, this is a car we asked. The entire GS forum is filled with owners happy with their cars, modifying them and praising their new GS.

The GS F is coming.


I don't even know how you just related "keep the ES" to "there won't be a GS F" then "keeps limiting options". And guess what as I am learning, you don't have to buy a Lexus.

You clearly didn't read the post. People that average $283,000 in salary picked
1. Audi 8.36
2. Lexus 8.34

#1 and #2 in brand perception. So you are wrong. Apparently those with the means feel Lexus is worth it.

 

I'm trying to find sales figures for 2012 compared to BMW.

Stop comparing Lexus to BMW and Mercedes. They are not BMW and Mercedes. Lexus went from a startup luxury division of Toyota with two models, one of them being a rebadged Camry, to being #1 in US luxury auto sales in 9 years. The reason for that success is they gave the US consumer what they wanted, instead of trying to tell the consumer what they wanted like BMW and Mercedes always had done. "Enthusiasts" have always complained that Lexuses were soulless, boring to drive, but that has always been in stark contrast to what sales would tell us. Americans like these soft riding, souless cruisers.

There is a huge market for these cars, the ES and the RX. To say Lexus should simply cede the some 200,000 units per year they see out of the ES and RX just makes no sense. Consumers who are so self important that they care that Lexus has a Camry based ES and RX are never going to leave their BMWs and Mercedes anyways, whether Lexus cancels them or not. To say that Lexus should cancel these models in the hopes that somehow they will, and in numbers sufficient to replace the 250,000 or so vehicles we're talking about is pretty foolish IMHO.

You also have to take into account that the market today is different than the market in the late 90s and early 2000s. Why do you think BMW and Mercedes are working on smaller, less expensive cars now where they havent in the past (which is arguable)? Because thats what the market is looking for.

Now is not the time for Lexus to do away with a platform that reduces R&D costs and a super popular low cost model to use more expensive platforms on more expensive vehicles.

 

So, reducing Lexus sales and revenue by 30% is going to bring us a GS-F? Thats the logic that makes no sense.

People aren't going to buy more GS-F's because theres no ES in the lineup. All canceling the ES would do is cripple Lexus by drastically reducing their profitability, thereby making it less feasible to R&D and design a low volume niche market GS-F.

 

Yes I'm an ES owner with happy ownership experience, but it doesn't mean I don't realize the position the presence of the ES has made Lexus to be in. Like SW10ES has said, the ES is really a Buick/Hyundai competitor. And yet, being badged a Lexus and being priced similarly to the IS and being sized similarly to the GS, it effectively saps away both Lexus's brand image and potential sales of their proper premium cars.

 

What you don't understand is Buick and Hyundai have built cars specifically to try and get buyers away from the ES. For YEARS and YEARS the ES had no competitors.

You speak as if Lexus is downgrading to compete with Hyundai and Buick and thats not the case, Hyundai and Buick are moving up to compete with Lexus. The ES is right where it has always been, its just that market is changing as consumer sentiment changes.

Hyundai has a $60,000 full size luxury car now, should Lexus cancel the LS because it "competes with a Hyundai"?

 

LOOK AT LEXUS JAPAN! That's what the GS sales should be like without the ES competing with it. And with enough GS volume the GS development team will then be enabled to develop more variants, both higher-end and lower-end. What is so hard to understand??

 

You can't compare the US to Japan! Completely different markets, completely different consumers.

I'm telling you, the American ES buyer wants a big car, soft riding car, prestigious so it looks nice at the tennis club. The GS is not that car, that consumer is not going to buy the GS, even if it were the same price as an ES. They are going to buy something else. I mean...look at the poll. On CL, where all this model bashing happens 76% of respondents say keep the ES.

Why do you think the 5 series has gotten so big, fat and overweight? Because they need that car to be what Lexus has two models to be. Because Lexus has the ES, the GS doesn't have to be that way. What you want Lexus to do is abandon the entry level american large premium sedan market...and thats just not going to happen as 35% of Lexus sales are in that market. You want this brand to be something its not.

In order for the GS to appeal to that buyer its got to be longer, with better rear legroom, you need the ability to sit 3 across in the back, and you need to be able to deliver it for $45k nicely equipped. That means those of us who enjoy the GS as it is now are going to have to compromise, as BMW buyers have to do.

Why is THAT so hard to understand?

 

Maybe I'm in an alternate universe but the ES has been around 25 years. It initially was positioned against the 3 series believe it or not. It won 10 best from C&D twice and always has done well in comparos. The ES got a chance to really become its own car when the IS was brought here and no longer had to "try" to be sporty, it could be a full blown baby LS.

TODAY you mention Buick and Hyundai but that wasn't the case b/c in the past NO ONE compared the ES to those brands as they didn't have cars to compare to the ES. Today they AIMED for Lexus and the ES. So you are saying CANCEL THE ES b/c COMPETITION AIMED FOR IT? That says how much of a success the ES is if the competition aims for it.

If it was a situation where the ES was doing awful, then maybe it makes sense. It has now a strong 25 year history and a HUGE fanbase. Lexus needs to figure out what will make the IS/GS/ES work together, they planned the product, they felt it could work and it has since 2001.

Historyn and how things have changed while the ES chugs along

1st gen ES 250
(no comment lol)
2nd gen ES 300 marketed as sporty, bought in droves but not for sport
aimed at 3, compared against Acura legend, Pontiact bonneville, mazda 929, mazda millenia, Mitsubishi Diamante
3rd gen ES 300
marketed as sporty, market bought it in droves but not for sport
aimed again at 3, compared to Acura Tl, Infiniti I30, Volvo 850, Saab 9-5, Buick....

Things change with the IS introduction in Europe in 1997 and the USA in 2001. Lexus moves the ES to be a baby LS fully with no sporting pretensions.
4th generation, sells in droves
no longer aims since it is best in class, compared to Acura Tl, Infiniti I35, Toyota Avalon, Buick Lacrosse,

5th generation
The 5th gen has the best selling volume of any year ES. By this time Hyundai is a completely different company, Buick has turned it around and the Tl is about to turn into a disaster. The ES marches on selling like crazy.
compared to Buick Lacrosse, Acura TL FWD, Hyundai Azera and Genesis,

6th gen
Well not even a full year but selling like hotcakes and a full blown hybrid.


What is INTERESTING now that I have written it out is during this time the only cars that are constant are the 3 series and ES. The rest are hits and misses or didn't exist. So why not show the ES some appreciation b/c it is pretty clear its success for 25 years is very hard to replicate.


Not only that but that is just magazine comparos. Some people cross shop the ES with the G35, G37, Audi A4 and A6, Mercedes etc etc.

 

Wow exactly what I wrote. I have faith in humanity

You are basing this position on only one reason, that the ES didn't exist. It could be 500,000 reasons why the GS sold so well. How about they can customize what they want. What about they just like the car. What about that traditionally the Japanese buy new things like crazy. In Japan when a new car debuts it sells very briskly.

In Japan the HS was the best selling car in 2011. Should we tell them bring it back to America?

 

Apparently! Like I said, better cancel the LS too because Hyundai and Kia are selling large luxury cars designed specifically with the LS in mind.

Better cancel the GS too, because Hyundai has the Genesis now ya know.

Hyundai is here to stay, they're going to be selling premium cars here successfully. Better get used to it!

Great example of why you can't use the Japanese market to predict success in the US.

 

I assume when Lexus came with their cars in the early 1990s, the Germans, Caddy etc all should have canceled their cars b/c you know, they were now considered downmarket.

Ferrari and Lambo are also going to cancel their cars, since Lexus made a LFA.

I mean how dare people enter a market that existed and aimed for what they considered to be the best!! How dare they, CANCEL THE CAR, NOW!!!!

 

Oh really, is that why BMW and Mercedes sell so many 3/5/C/E's in the US every year, even before the 5 grew big? The market for the GS is much larger than you think, if only the ES isn't there to compete with it.

You are so stuck on the existing ES clientele you forget about the big picture. Lexus is supposed to be a premium brand. The ES was once a good Lexus model to kick off the brand and grow it quickly, but it is now actually limiting its growth due to its less-than-premium nature and its limiting the sales of their more premium models.

 

Cancel them all!!!

 

Absolutely, instead of trying to make their cars more like the LS, which as we already determined was what the American buyer actually wanted, they should have just cancelled them all!

 

The ES starts at 36k. The GS starts at 47k. This is base. What you are saying makes no sense b/c there is no way if the ES is not here those buyers are going to pay 10 grand more for a GS. It just will not happen.

Lets talk options. A fully loaded ES starts at a base GS. 47k. Lets option out the GS, it can hit 80k.

You are telling us that people would buy the GS and GS sales would fly through the roof if there was no ES option, a car that LOADED is the price of a BASE GS.

Okay lets say the GS gets a base engine like the ES without DI and prices it at 45k. Thats still not low enough and still a huge jump. An ES with a basic option package(s) is 42k


If you want to say Lexus has product placement issues with the ES/GS fine. Saying the GS would sell 4-5k more if the ES was not there simply is not reasonable.