View Poll Results: Should Lexus cancel the ES?
Yes
18
20.45%
No
70
79.55%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll
Lexus to Cancel ES?
Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
From: CA
Maybe I'm in an alternate universe but the ES has been around 25 years. It initially was positioned against the 3 series believe it or not. It won 10 best from C&D twice and always has done well in comparos. The ES got a chance to really become its own car when the IS was brought here and no longer had to "try" to be sporty, it could be a full blown baby LS.
TODAY you mention Buick and Hyundai but that wasn't the case b/c in the past NO ONE compared the ES to those brands as they didn't have cars to compare to the ES. Today they AIMED for Lexus and the ES. So you are saying CANCEL THE ES b/c COMPETITION AIMED FOR IT? That says how much of a success the ES is if the competition aims for it.
If it was a situation where the ES was doing awful, then maybe it makes sense. It has now a strong 25 year history and a HUGE fanbase. Lexus needs to figure out what will make the IS/GS/ES work together, they planned the product, they felt it could work and it has since 2001.
Historyn and how things have changed while the ES chugs along
1st gen ES 250
(no comment lol)
2nd gen ES 300 marketed as sporty, bought in droves but not for sport
aimed at 3, compared against Acura legend, Pontiact bonneville, mazda 929, mazda millenia, Mitsubishi Diamante
3rd gen ES 300
marketed as sporty, market bought it in droves but not for sport
aimed again at 3, compared to Acura Tl, Infiniti I30, Volvo 850, Saab 9-5, Buick....
Things change with the IS introduction in Europe in 1997 and the USA in 2001. Lexus moves the ES to be a baby LS fully with no sporting pretensions.
4th generation, sells in droves
no longer aims since it is best in class, compared to Acura Tl, Infiniti I35, Toyota Avalon, Buick Lacrosse,
5th generation
The 5th gen has the best selling volume of any year ES. By this time Hyundai is a completely different company, Buick has turned it around and the Tl is about to turn into a disaster. The ES marches on selling like crazy.
compared to Buick Lacrosse, Acura TL FWD, Hyundai Azera and Genesis,
6th gen
Well not even a full year but selling like hotcakes and a full blown hybrid.
What is INTERESTING now that I have written it out is during this time the only cars that are constant are the 3 series and ES. The rest are hits and misses or didn't exist. So why not show the ES some appreciation b/c it is pretty clear its success for 25 years is very hard to replicate.
Not only that but that is just magazine comparos. Some people cross shop the ES with the G35, G37, Audi A4 and A6, Mercedes etc etc.
TODAY you mention Buick and Hyundai but that wasn't the case b/c in the past NO ONE compared the ES to those brands as they didn't have cars to compare to the ES. Today they AIMED for Lexus and the ES. So you are saying CANCEL THE ES b/c COMPETITION AIMED FOR IT? That says how much of a success the ES is if the competition aims for it.
If it was a situation where the ES was doing awful, then maybe it makes sense. It has now a strong 25 year history and a HUGE fanbase. Lexus needs to figure out what will make the IS/GS/ES work together, they planned the product, they felt it could work and it has since 2001.
Historyn and how things have changed while the ES chugs along
1st gen ES 250
(no comment lol)
2nd gen ES 300 marketed as sporty, bought in droves but not for sport
aimed at 3, compared against Acura legend, Pontiact bonneville, mazda 929, mazda millenia, Mitsubishi Diamante
3rd gen ES 300
marketed as sporty, market bought it in droves but not for sport
aimed again at 3, compared to Acura Tl, Infiniti I30, Volvo 850, Saab 9-5, Buick....
Things change with the IS introduction in Europe in 1997 and the USA in 2001. Lexus moves the ES to be a baby LS fully with no sporting pretensions.
4th generation, sells in droves
no longer aims since it is best in class, compared to Acura Tl, Infiniti I35, Toyota Avalon, Buick Lacrosse,
5th generation
The 5th gen has the best selling volume of any year ES. By this time Hyundai is a completely different company, Buick has turned it around and the Tl is about to turn into a disaster. The ES marches on selling like crazy.
compared to Buick Lacrosse, Acura TL FWD, Hyundai Azera and Genesis,
6th gen
Well not even a full year but selling like hotcakes and a full blown hybrid.
What is INTERESTING now that I have written it out is during this time the only cars that are constant are the 3 series and ES. The rest are hits and misses or didn't exist. So why not show the ES some appreciation b/c it is pretty clear its success for 25 years is very hard to replicate.
Not only that but that is just magazine comparos. Some people cross shop the ES with the G35, G37, Audi A4 and A6, Mercedes etc etc.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,073
Likes: 3,868
From: Maryland
Oh really, is that why BMW and Mercedes sell so many 3/5/C/E's in the US every year, even before the 5 grew big? The market for the GS is much larger than you think, if only the ES isn't there to compete with it.
As to the market for the GS, I think there is a large market for the GS, but a lot of the things we like about the GS would have to change. It would have to compromise more, which the E and 5 already do.
Do you want one vehicle that tries to be everything to everybody, or two vehicles that serve two ends of the spectrum? Thats Lexus model philosophy, provide entry level options, sport and luxury. Has been since the IS as Blue mentioned.
You are so stuck on the existing ES clientele you forget about the big picture. Lexus is supposed to be a premium brand. The ES was once a good Lexus model to kick off the brand and grow it quickly, but it is now actually limiting its growth due to its less-than-premium nature and its limiting the sales of their more premium models.
I don't see how a vehicle that accounts for 35% of Lexus sales in the US can be "limiting its growth". How can you say a company can grow more by loosing 35% of its customer base? You may capture some of that loss in the GS, but not all of it. Any way you cut it loosing the ES would cost Lexus customers.
Its not about comparing Lexus to BMW and Mercedes, its about an honest assessment of Lexus' consumer and what that consumer wants. Why is a consumer that wants a GS more valuable than 3 consumers who want an ES? Because thats what you're talking about trading.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Buick has been in the ES's market long before Lexus even existed. The ES is why Lexus has been called the Japanese Buick by many. Though the good thing is that Lexus has made a better Buick than Buick ever did, it doesn't change the fact that the ES is a less-than-premium car and thus limiting further growth of the Lexus brand.
Here is a comparison from March 2000. Do you see any Buick anywhere?????
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
+ Ninth: Mitsubishi Diamante LS
+ Eighth: Pontiac Bonneville SSEi
+ Seventh: Volvo S70GLT
+ Sixth: Infiniti I30t
+ Fifth: Lincoln LS V-6
+ Fourth: Mazda Millenia S Millennium Edition
+ Third: Lexus ES300
+ Second: Chrysler 300M
+ First: Acura 3.2TL
Lets go farther back
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...0-content.html
10. Saab 9000 CD
9. Volvo 960
8. Mitsibuishi Diamante
7. Mazda 929 (RWD FYI)
6. Pontiac Bonneville SSEi
5. Acura Legend L
4. Infiniti J30 (RWD FYI)
3. Audi 100 S
2. GASP OMG LEXUS ES 300 BEAT ALL THOSE CARS I THOUGHT IS WAS BUICK AND SUCKED SO BAD, THIS CANNOT BE AND ITS CAR AND DRIVER THIS IS LIE
1. BMW 325 (RWD FYI)
Do you see a bloody Buick anywhere? There is none so stop talking it was aimed for Buick, it was not. If you knew your history you would know THE AVALON WAS BUILT SPECIFICALLY TO FIGHT BUICK, thus the option bench seat in the first generation. Toyota created the Avalon to fight the Buicks. What did happen is what I stated, while Lexus aimed the ES to be sporty, we can say a lot of Buick buyers got the ES. Lexus never targeted Buick with the ES. After the IS 300 came, Lexus could now position the ES to be a full blow baby LS and if you want to say Buick, go right ahead.
What happened is GM saw that Buick buyers were going to the Avalon and ES 300 though the Avalon was specifically aimed for Buick while the ES was not. The buyers liked both cars. GM today has done a great job aiming at the two cars to get it mojo and buyers back.
Here is an article saying how the Avalon clearly targeted Buick.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6376,3635341
Last edited by LexFather; Mar 20, 2013 at 04:52 PM.
No, YOU do not understand so don't accuse anyone else of misunderstanding. Your points are based on the emotional response that the ES somehow being related to the Camry is terrible and the ES is a horrible car for Lexus.
Read some car history books. BMW and Mercedes actually have sold downmarket cars for decades, BMW survived bankruptcy selling downmarket cars. In Europe BMW and Mercedes are like GM there since most are low spec volume cars. Mercedes has had the A class around for a decade now and their C-class hatch flopped here where the CT has been a success.
There is no LAW that states a luxury car lineup has to resemble the German way of the 1990s
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It is 2013 look at BMW today
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Read some car history books. BMW and Mercedes actually have sold downmarket cars for decades, BMW survived bankruptcy selling downmarket cars. In Europe BMW and Mercedes are like GM there since most are low spec volume cars. Mercedes has had the A class around for a decade now and their C-class hatch flopped here where the CT has been a success.
There is no LAW that states a luxury car lineup has to resemble the German way of the 1990s
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It is 2013 look at BMW today
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carry on
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,073
Likes: 3,868
From: Maryland
That article brings up another interesting blast from the past, the Toyota Cressida. More evidence that theres always been some overlap between the top Toyota and the entry level Lexus. My uncle had a 1990 or 1989 Cressida, which was a ghastly late 80s early 90s maroon exterior on burgundy interior. It was a nice car, nicer car than the ES of the day.
EDIT: As a matter of fact, here it is:
_GLX_sedan_02.jpg)
EDIT: As a matter of fact, here it is:
Last edited by SW17LS; Mar 20, 2013 at 05:15 PM.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
From: CA
Again, stop comparing Lexus to BMW and Mercedes. If you want to be a fan of a company that develops and markets their products the way BMW and Mercedes do, go join their forums. Success comes about in many forms, look at how fast Audi is coming up on everybody especially overseas. They have a very different philosophy than BMW, Mercedes, OR Lexus.
As to the market for the GS, I think there is a large market for the GS, but a lot of the things we like about the GS would have to change. It would have to compromise more, which the E and 5 already do.
Do you want one vehicle that tries to be everything to everybody, or two vehicles that serve two ends of the spectrum? Thats Lexus model philosophy, provide entry level options, sport and luxury. Has been since the IS as Blue mentioned.
Lexus is a premium brand, doesn't mean other brands don't also want to be more premium.
I don't see how a vehicle that accounts for 35% of Lexus sales in the US can be "limiting its growth". How can you say a company can grow more by loosing 35% of its customer base? You may capture some of that loss in the GS, but not all of it. Any way you cut it loosing the ES would cost Lexus customers.
Its not about comparing Lexus to BMW and Mercedes, its about an honest assessment of Lexus' consumer and what that consumer wants.
As to the market for the GS, I think there is a large market for the GS, but a lot of the things we like about the GS would have to change. It would have to compromise more, which the E and 5 already do.
Do you want one vehicle that tries to be everything to everybody, or two vehicles that serve two ends of the spectrum? Thats Lexus model philosophy, provide entry level options, sport and luxury. Has been since the IS as Blue mentioned.
Lexus is a premium brand, doesn't mean other brands don't also want to be more premium.
I don't see how a vehicle that accounts for 35% of Lexus sales in the US can be "limiting its growth". How can you say a company can grow more by loosing 35% of its customer base? You may capture some of that loss in the GS, but not all of it. Any way you cut it loosing the ES would cost Lexus customers.
Its not about comparing Lexus to BMW and Mercedes, its about an honest assessment of Lexus' consumer and what that consumer wants.
Why is a consumer that wants a GS more valuable than 3 consumers who want an ES? Because thats what you're talking about trading.
Seriously, you guys need to understand what brand image is about and the power of a high brand value.
Last edited by ydooby; Mar 20, 2013 at 05:23 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 20,211
Likes: 260
Lexus has lost its crown in 2011, not before that, and Tsunami and recalls helped that, together with heavy $$$ discounts on Germans.
If your suggestion to regain sales crown is removing ES, then heh.
Germans have started with cheap models long time ago and are only doing more of them now, worldwide. All of major growth additions to all 3 german brands in the future will be cheaper models. Sales of expensive S/7/A8/LS are down everywhere in the world. Sales of A1, A3, Q3, 1, X1 are up.
With Yen being back to normal levels, Lexus will be able to fight back with incentives and get even more sales in 2013.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,073
Likes: 3,868
From: Maryland
And who are you to determine what models need expanding? Seeing that they added a hybrid version to the ES, their determination was that the ES needed expanding.
Just don't complain like we see people on CL (myself included) often do that a certain model isn't coming or doesn't last over one generation simply because its volume is too low for Lexus to justify making it.
They are more likely to develop models that are going to be low volume if they are not struggling to keep the lights on at headquarters and at their dealers.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 20,211
Likes: 260
Growth means expanding. The ES isn't helping Lexus expand by sapping away sales from models that actually need expansion. It's all fine and good if Lexus is content with where they are, keeping the majority of their sales coming from models based on non-premium platforms, as there is certainly a large market for it. Just don't complain like we see people on CL (myself included) often do that a certain model isn't coming or doesn't last over one generation simply because its volume is too low for Lexus to justify making it.It may look like "trading" 3 ES customers to 1 GS customer at first, but then you'll realize you're trading 3 ES customer for 1 GS, 1 SC and 1 unnamed Lexus roadster customer because these SC and roadster customers wouldn't have looked at Lexus when the brand image isn't there.
Its what A, B, CLA are doing for MB brand world wide. Easily 25%-30% of MB sales will go to these 3 models in 2013 (worldwide again).
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 20,211
Likes: 260
A lot of ydooby and other reactions comes from thinking that GS needs to tripple sales or will not be sold anymore. This is simply not true... GS will be around forever. GS platform spans several various vehicles that end up selling 200k per year or more. GS is very expensive and thus very profitable vehicle, i wouldnt be worried a bit about it.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
From: CA
Its what A, B, CLA are doing for MB brand world wide. Easily 25%-30% of MB sales will go to these 3 models in 2013 (worldwide again).
Last edited by ydooby; Mar 20, 2013 at 05:39 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,073
Likes: 3,868
From: Maryland
By cancelling the ES you lose the latter subset of ES customers but the gain in the GS and IS sales and the gain in the brand image will more than compensate for the loss by enabling Lexus to expand into other premium models of which Lexus wouldn't have otherwise been able to sell in enough quantities to justify making them in the first place.
World-wide? That's what the mothership Toyota is for. Unlike Mercedes, Lexus doesn't need A and B to survive. And Mercedes has built its high-end brand image long before it started expanding into A, B and CLA.
And again, if you love Mercedes so much...go buy one...great forum...mbworld.org. They share your views on Lexus. Stop trying to turn Lexus into Mercedes.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,285
Likes: 309
From: ON/NY
Yes, I'm aware this sounds crazy but hear me out. I was just reading MotorTrend's 2013 Power List and Mark Templin made #44. His entry reads as follows:
Does anyone have any insider info on this? The ES is such a cash cow and a great entry point into the luxury game. Very surprising to me. Forgive me if this is old news.
Does anyone have any insider info on this? The ES is such a cash cow and a great entry point into the luxury game. Very surprising to me. Forgive me if this is old news.
I can only see Lexus canning the ES if they continue to make it in Japan only. The Avalon will hava a huge profit margin advantage as it is made and sold in the US.
A tier one brand does not have ES type vehicles, so I could see Lexus canning it.
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More ES and Lexus trolling. So b/c someone else doesn't do it means its bad? I guess that 1 series or A class or A2 means they are not Tier 1. Wait that's ridiculous aint it.
Hey lets ignore the facts and just post anything our brains come up with.