I understand what you mean.
When we classify, we do try to classify with many specs in common.
However, models will always be different, and there will always be a few models like 7ES which is a little more different than the others.
G80 doesn't have a direct competitor to Lexus after the GS is axed, but 7ES does come "satisfactorily" close, esp in size.
Even the Volvo S90 FWD can be in this category, but I didn't mention because it only achieved 8k in its first full year, and was down to just 2k last year; sort of like a Jaguar XF luxury midsizer.

Many people cross-shop ES, E Class and 5 Series.
For example, just two posts above, RNM GS3 thinks that G80 should target ES, and I wholly agree with him.
Furthermore, back in 2017, Lexus was caught testing 7ES against both E Class and Audi A6 in the Arizona desert, probably because Lexus secretly knew that 4GS will be discontinued and that 7ES will be at least a partial replacement.

Even if 7ES is too different in specs, it doesn't hurt to compare 7ES to E Class, 5 Series and G80.
When I compare these cars, I do often include statements like "the E Class has sold wonderfully well - considering its higher price"; meaning that I do take price into account when discussing sales volumes.

Such that cheaper models like 7ES, and even G70/G80/G90 - are all expected to sell better - considering their lower prices, albeit on a pro rata basis; meaning the lower the prices, the higher the sales volumes.
For example, even though 1st to 4th gen LS outsold S Class, I have NEVER said that 1-4LS was greater than S Class, because I knew that 1-4LS outsold S Class due to 1-4LS being cheaper; 1-4LS and S Class were both great, but in different ways.
I'd even say ultimately, S Class was always statelier than LS, despite Gens 1-4 LS selling better.

I understand that ES sales are a long way away from G80 sales, but then Toyota Motor Corp has around $185 billion dollars in equity, to Hyundai Motor Co's $61 billion.

https://www.carwale.com/news/2019-le...he-first-time/

 

I don't disagree that the current ES can be seen as a competitor to the outgoing G80. But the current ES is also a new vehicle that has moved upmarket from its prior position as the 6th generation. You can now spec it up to over $55k, which is unheard of for an ES.

The thing is, the outgoing G80 is a rather old vehicle that started life as the '15 Hyundai Genesis. And there is absolutely no comparison between it and the ES of the time, both in price and features. You could spec a Hyundai Genesis up to the high $50k mark, whereas that ES never reached $50k. Quite frankly, the Genesis was in another league. Even now, the outgoing G80 is still a higher-level vehicle than the ES as others mentioned a few posts above. The price cap has gone up to $60k for the most expensive G80. But the gap is a lot closer than before, and it did not help the longevity of the GS either for the ES to move upmarket.

So when the G80 got updated for 2021, it also moved upmarket. And like the ES, that is also reflected in its higher pricetag. If Lexus found some way to pair the ES V6 with AWD, give it more powerful engines, and increase the quality of the interior materials to the level of the GS, if not a notch below the LS, I think there can be a real argument made for it to be priced the same as the Genesis as well, if not even higher because of the Lexus badge. But for now, the G80 still remains a class above. Will people cross-shop it with an ES? Absolutely. But people were also cross-shopping Palisades with RX's, and the RX will eternally remain a class above.

 

agreed.

even on 18's i think the car looks great.

agreed 100%

everyone may be you but maybe you forget that the vast majority of 3, 5, E vehicles sold are 4 cylinders now. i remember when a friend leased yet another e class (e300) and when i rode in it (very nice!) i told him the engine was amazing for a 4 cylinder, and he looked at me in disbelief that it was a 4. it was/is certainly very smooth and quiet.

the 3.3T puts it in bmw 340i territory, so easily justifying the higher price.

i do not believe E/5 shopper cross-shop the ES much and if they do, they will be disappointed.
i see the ES more for the camry/accord/acura owner who wants to step up or someone who got burned with a lincoln or cadillac.

 

People do cross shop the ES and 5 Series E Class but those people are non car enthusiasts that are just looking for “midsized car” in each brand without really understanding the differences.

I know several such people who had older 5 Series/ E Classes and traded for the ES and consider that a lateral move.

 

Before we bought our 5 Series I was interested in an ES350 UL but surprisingly my non car person wife wasn't interested in it. I could barely get her to go to a dealership to look at one. It was strictly a styling thing with her. We might have got one (although UL's seem hard to find around me) if she'd warmed up to it a bit. I looked at the Genesis G80 but this was right at the time of the dealer issues and little to no inventory and getting near the end of the model year so I moved on.

No regrets on the 5 Series though. We're both glad it's what we ended up with as it suits our needs just right.

 

Genesis is reliable now?
This is news to me - new platforms, engines, tech etc.

Again to me they haven’t clearly expressed their mission statement as a brand. In luxury segment, brand image/ identity is just as important as the products themselves. Tesla has this nailed down.

They want to charge $60-90k for G80/90 then they need to deliver more. Even Lexus has trouble moving units in those price brackets.

 

Well yes, at least according to every online reliability evaluation metric like Consumer Reports or JD Power. Regardless of whether you agree with their assessment methods, those rankings certainly give the perception that they would be reliable, good quality, and lasting vehicles to the general public. Also having that super long 100,000 mile powertrain warranty carried over from Hyundai helps. And given the testimonies of some of the owners on this board like Bitkahuna, I don't think it's all hot air.

New engines and platforms are introduced all the time from every brand, but I don't see anything about the new Genesis vehicles that would make them inherently a mess like what you see on the European vehicles with their wild supercharged and turbocharged mild hybrid systems. The fact that they're adding port injection to their formerly direct injection-only engines like Lexus when almost no one else in Europe has bothered demonstrates to me that they are interested in the longevity of their mechanical components. That's just one example. As for the electronics and safety systems? That's something every manufacturer is going to have to sort out, even Lexus, because that tech is too new to see how it'll age 10 years from now. But again, so far, I've yet to hear of any widespread nightmare stories from Genesis on that.

Not sure I agree with the Tesla assessment because Tesla has no marketing budget. They don't promote any particular brand image. They sell because they were the first to make high-tech EVs with a performance bent rather than "save the trees" and gained their own wide cult following. They're a disruptor to the car industry as a whole and none of their practices would work for any other established brand.

As for brand identity, can you tell me what the image and mission statement of Volvo, Cadillac, Lincoln, Jaguar, Acura, Infiniti and most other brands that aren't Mercedes/BMW/Lexus nowadays that would make them appealing to consumers? All Genesis needs to do to win consumers over is let them know their product is there, and I'm sure the test drive can speak for itself.

 

When Acura was created, Honda was not looking to attract BMW buyers, but to provide a place for the many Accord owners to move up instead of switching brands. With the many Kia and Hyundai buyers now, Genesis provides a way to move up in performance and luxury. Acura lost their way a few years ago but now looks like a revival. I hope Genesis stays the course.

 

Yeah, they're called Realtors. i've always said the ES is a perfect realtor's car because it's 'nice' without being 'look at me' flashy, roomy, comfortable, inoffensive, reliable, and quiet, so their prospects can hear the pitch and answers to questions as they drive around.

this from a bmw fanboy.

But more seriously, i consider all vehicles these days 'reliable enough' with a greater chance of being hit by lightning than being left stranded by car drivetrain failure.

Not everyone cares. I certainly don't. But i get the branding/image deal, however it can work both ways. MANY people will NEVER drive a bmw because of its carefully cultivated image (plus endless ads with buff 40-something guys looking arrogant and deadly serious with just the 'right' amount of stubble and gray hair ).

it has the 'cult of elon' behind it, just as apple had the cult of steve. Both tesla and apple have unique and innovative tech though, plus quirks. Apple has obviously been at it a lot longer, almost went out of business at one time, and survived their cult leader's end.

The luxury sedan market has obviously been on a huge slide just as genesis has been trying to get going. "Pushing water uphill" comes to mind. Bmw and mercedes pulled out all the stops to cement their positions in the mid and high end sedan segment, but as you say, tesla has been a clear disruptor here, with the S and 3. The Y will likely do the same in the compact to midsize ute market, although i still can't consider it a luxury vehicle, but it is aspirational.

i've had my g90 just over 2 years and had one 'issue' the volume **** was misbehaving and they replaced the entire infotainment system under warranty. Besides that, no issues, and i've never set foot in the dealership for service (they come to me), which i love.

 

They are lol

Most realtors anymore drive crossovers or SUVs though.

 

Folks let's drop off this fanboy term here and in future threads. Plenty of members (including moderators) with favorite marques that can be readily identified from their posts without the name calling. Recognize it can be meant as humorous as here, but is often intentionally or accidentally taken otherwise and builds ill-will.

 

Review of G80 2.5T
He reviews and demonstrates the handling at 14:25.

 

^From that video, 0-60 for the 2.5T is a couple hundredths of a second faster than the outgoing 3.8 V6, and gives up to 35 mpg on the highway. Other than having a naturally aspirated V6, the new 4-cylinder is an improvement in every aspect. Can't get into the G70 soon enough, because the current 2.0T is dated and embarrassingly underpowered.

 

Makes the gv80 with 2.5T seem more appealing now and the 3.5T only interesting if go fast is a big thing.

 

An added advantage mentioned in the review is that the lighter 2.5T handles better than the 3.5T.

A 2.5T with an aftermarket tune could be interesting....