General EV Conversation
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,143
Likes: 4,364
From: Alberta
Lead Lap
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,562
Likes: 674
From: SC
Lots of people conflate socialism and welfare. Norway is a welfare state funded by fossil fuels. Completely different from socialism.
They are a small rich country. Nothing they do really scales to countries as large and diverse as the US.
They are a small rich country. Nothing they do really scales to countries as large and diverse as the US.
Last edited by Bob04; Oct 18, 2025 at 08:56 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 69,090
Likes: 4,182
From: Maryland
IMO incentivizing is totally different than forcing. I don’t want the government forcing anybody to buy a certain kind of car, but I have no issue with providing incentives to trigger changes in consumer behavior.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 69,090
Likes: 4,182
From: Maryland
Bringing it back to EVs and incentives, in business we use incentives all the time to get behavior we want. Even if those incentives are so great you can't say no. Examples, builders give closing cost credits so huge if you use their lender and their title company that the buyer can't say no. By law, the buyer gets to choose their lender and title company but if they are leaving $25,000 on the table by going with someone else...that just isn't worth it. We incentivize agents to give up space in the brokerage business all the time. We have limited brick and mortar office space, so we give higher splits and marketing money etc to agents who give up their physical office space.
I don't see how society is harmed by the government giving a tax break to people who buy energy efficient or environmentally efficient things. We give them for windows, appliances, building materials...why not cars? The net result is we have homes that are more energy efficient and the consumer gets a tax break to help offset the higher initial cost of the better materials and products. With cars, we have more efficient and less polluting cars on the road and we have given a tax break to help consumers offset the higher initial cost of buying an EV. I don't see the difference.
I don't see how society is harmed by the government giving a tax break to people who buy energy efficient or environmentally efficient things. We give them for windows, appliances, building materials...why not cars? The net result is we have homes that are more energy efficient and the consumer gets a tax break to help offset the higher initial cost of the better materials and products. With cars, we have more efficient and less polluting cars on the road and we have given a tax break to help consumers offset the higher initial cost of buying an EV. I don't see the difference.
Last edited by SW17LS; Oct 19, 2025 at 07:14 AM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,563
Likes: 404
From: ON/NY
Bringing it back to EVs and incentives, in business we use incentives all the time to get behavior we want. Even if those incentives are so great you can't say no. Examples, builders give closing cost credits so huge if you use their lender and their title company that the buyer can't say no. By law, the buyer gets to choose their lender and title company but if they are leaving $25,000 on the table by going with someone else...that just isn't worth it. We incentivize agents to give up space in the brokerage business all the time. We have limited brick and mortar office space, so we give higher splits and marketing money etc to agents who give up their physical office space.
I don't see how society is harmed by the government giving a tax break to people who buy energy efficient or environmentally efficient things. We give them for windows, appliances, building materials...why not cars? The net result is we have homes that are more energy efficient and the consumer gets a tax break to help offset the higher initial cost of the better materials and products. With cars, we have more efficient and less polluting cars on the road and we have given a tax break to help consumers offset the higher initial cost of buying an EV. I don't see the difference.
I don't see how society is harmed by the government giving a tax break to people who buy energy efficient or environmentally efficient things. We give them for windows, appliances, building materials...why not cars? The net result is we have homes that are more energy efficient and the consumer gets a tax break to help offset the higher initial cost of the better materials and products. With cars, we have more efficient and less polluting cars on the road and we have given a tax break to help consumers offset the higher initial cost of buying an EV. I don't see the difference.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,143
Likes: 4,364
From: Alberta
This thread has gone heavily off topic if you know what I mean.
Back on topic at least to an extent I had a conversation with Grok about building out a 10,000 square mile solar array (cell surface area not total infrastructure area). The math works out to about 12 years to get it done, would supply 3x more power than the United States currently uses. Cost will be $7 trillion, payback time 20-25 years. This is doable. And in before the skeptics will howl about solar panels being dirty, this array would be 75% cleaner out of the gate that rate would increase over time.
It's depressing we didn't start on this 10 years ago, instead still burning coal and natural gas to generate power. Sunk cost fallacy is super powerful here. The opportunity for the auto sector is unbelievable, after paying the pollution tax to make EVs they become 100% clean.
Back on topic at least to an extent I had a conversation with Grok about building out a 10,000 square mile solar array (cell surface area not total infrastructure area). The math works out to about 12 years to get it done, would supply 3x more power than the United States currently uses. Cost will be $7 trillion, payback time 20-25 years. This is doable. And in before the skeptics will howl about solar panels being dirty, this array would be 75% cleaner out of the gate that rate would increase over time.
It's depressing we didn't start on this 10 years ago, instead still burning coal and natural gas to generate power. Sunk cost fallacy is super powerful here. The opportunity for the auto sector is unbelievable, after paying the pollution tax to make EVs they become 100% clean.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 69,090
Likes: 4,182
From: Maryland
It's depressing we didn't start on this 10 years ago, instead still burning coal and natural gas to generate power. Sunk cost fallacy is super powerful here. The opportunity for the auto sector is unbelievable, after paying the pollution tax to make EVs they become 100% clean.
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Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 11,369
Likes: 1,631
From: FL
This thread has gone heavily off topic if you know what I mean.
Back on topic at least to an extent I had a conversation with Grok about building out a 10,000 square mile solar array (cell surface area not total infrastructure area). The math works out to about 12 years to get it done, would supply 3x more power than the United States currently uses. Cost will be $7 trillion, payback time 20-25 years. This is doable. And in before the skeptics will howl about solar panels being dirty, this array would be 75% cleaner out of the gate that rate would increase over time.
It's depressing we didn't start on this 10 years ago, instead still burning coal and natural gas to generate power. Sunk cost fallacy is super powerful here. The opportunity for the auto sector is unbelievable, after paying the pollution tax to make EVs they become 100% clean.
Back on topic at least to an extent I had a conversation with Grok about building out a 10,000 square mile solar array (cell surface area not total infrastructure area). The math works out to about 12 years to get it done, would supply 3x more power than the United States currently uses. Cost will be $7 trillion, payback time 20-25 years. This is doable. And in before the skeptics will howl about solar panels being dirty, this array would be 75% cleaner out of the gate that rate would increase over time.
It's depressing we didn't start on this 10 years ago, instead still burning coal and natural gas to generate power. Sunk cost fallacy is super powerful here. The opportunity for the auto sector is unbelievable, after paying the pollution tax to make EVs they become 100% clean.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 11,369
Likes: 1,631
From: FL
This is a video that I enjoyed that made this same point. EV critics say that an EV is environmentally more damaging to make than an ICE, and this person agrees that is true but points out that after as quickly as just a couple years that totally flips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MicJ46YX5Lg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MicJ46YX5Lg
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,143
Likes: 4,364
From: Alberta
Incentives are often counterproductive because they feed layers of bureaucracy instead of giving value to the consumer. Look at what happened recently in New Jersey a Tesla Supercharger stop was ripped out and replaced by a piece of crap that barely works paid for by yours truly.
Morning.
I will admit I was super pissed reading the back and forth banter here. (no wonder why the debate forums were removed)
The fact that it got reported so many times by so many people. (not just the people who said they were reporting) Is just infuriating...Ya'all are gown-***-adults!
Carry on. Be civil and stay on topic.
I will admit I was super pissed reading the back and forth banter here. (no wonder why the debate forums were removed)
The fact that it got reported so many times by so many people. (not just the people who said they were reporting) Is just infuriating...Ya'all are gown-***-adults!
Carry on. Be civil and stay on topic.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 19,852
Likes: 3,809
From: California
I'm just telling you, the software issues are no joke. I loved my Polestar, but having to reboot my infotainment system once or twice a week becomes an annoyance. One you can live with, but still an annoyance