General EV Conversation
Lead Lap
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 3,958
Likes: 409
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 25,962
Likes: 4,291
From: Alberta
I think batteries are a concern, even for hybrids. People had that as their number one concern about buying such vehicles (and I do too, with my Prius now in its 15th year and 172k miles!).
In hybrids, the costs to replace batteries is fairly low nowadays, maybe $800 to $1000 or so, but the much larger batteries of BEV have been reported to cost higher than $20,000, so it's def something to consider.
Right now, given that BEV are somewhat new and most cars have new batteries, data on when batteries fail is probably still rare and still somewhat anecdotal, but a quick search of youtube shows that it does happen. In one case, a guy with 100k on his had to replace 2 times already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3E2bIbek-M
This one had to replace it after only 64k miles, which is pretty bad imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO0aKsgcyYI
Anyways, to ICE people, battery life and cost of replacement is probably a big concern when they consider buying any electric vehicle (whether HEV, PHEV, or BEV). It's just one of those things that people will need to take a leap and finally learn that it's not THAT bad.
In hybrids, the costs to replace batteries is fairly low nowadays, maybe $800 to $1000 or so, but the much larger batteries of BEV have been reported to cost higher than $20,000, so it's def something to consider.
Right now, given that BEV are somewhat new and most cars have new batteries, data on when batteries fail is probably still rare and still somewhat anecdotal, but a quick search of youtube shows that it does happen. In one case, a guy with 100k on his had to replace 2 times already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3E2bIbek-M
This one had to replace it after only 64k miles, which is pretty bad imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO0aKsgcyYI
Anyways, to ICE people, battery life and cost of replacement is probably a big concern when they consider buying any electric vehicle (whether HEV, PHEV, or BEV). It's just one of those things that people will need to take a leap and finally learn that it's not THAT bad.
Honestly this thread has become pointless it's become a platform to **** on EVs.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,486
Likes: 3,998
From: Maryland
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,486
Likes: 3,998
From: Maryland
Battery #3 and motor #13. Remember it has 2 motors...and replacing an EV motor is nothing like replacing an ICE motor. Thats still 100,000 miles per motor and 400,000 miles per battery. Likely motors failed in pairs, so thats 185,000 miles between motor failures.
I guarantee the cost to run that to 1.2 Million miles is FAR less than it would have cost to run a comparable luxury ICE sedan to 1.2 Million miles. Thats roughly 2,300 tanks of fuel for one, at a cost of $138,000 if we assume $60 a tank. Assuming 40k on brakes which is about right thats 30 brake jobs which on my S560 cost about $2,000, thats $60,000 in brakes where a model S can go 100k miles without a brake job easily. Changing oil every 10k miles thats 120 oil changes at $115 a pop thats $13,800. Even on the million mile Lexus LS400 there were something like 6 transmission rebuilds...
I guarantee the cost to run that to 1.2 Million miles is FAR less than it would have cost to run a comparable luxury ICE sedan to 1.2 Million miles. Thats roughly 2,300 tanks of fuel for one, at a cost of $138,000 if we assume $60 a tank. Assuming 40k on brakes which is about right thats 30 brake jobs which on my S560 cost about $2,000, thats $60,000 in brakes where a model S can go 100k miles without a brake job easily. Changing oil every 10k miles thats 120 oil changes at $115 a pop thats $13,800. Even on the million mile Lexus LS400 there were something like 6 transmission rebuilds...
Last edited by SW17LS; Mar 20, 2024 at 08:08 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,486
Likes: 3,998
From: Maryland
I have to agree with this. Its ridiculous. This is supposed to be a place to duscuss EVs in general, not a place to constantly have this back and forth argument, and Hybrids aren't even supposed to be discussed in here, only EVs and PHEVs.
Advanced
Joined: Feb 2024
Posts: 558
Likes: 130
From: NJ/FL
Your constant barrage of FUD has become incredibly tiresome I can cherry pick any car and find catastrophic failure including Toyota. I personally revived a Prius that had a totally dead hybrid battery the dealer wanted more than the car was worth to get it back into operation. $1,000 repair is your claim? Not even close the estimate was over $10,000.
Honestly this thread has become pointless it's become a platform to **** on EVs.
Honestly this thread has become pointless it's become a platform to **** on EVs.
I also did say it would still be rare in new cars, and that any cases would be anecdotal, and gave those vids as examples.
Nothing I said so far above is false or FUD. It's simply being honest.
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Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,486
Likes: 3,998
From: Maryland
Didn't I say it was a concern to all electric vehicles? I know people ask me all the time about the hybrid battery (whether HEV or PHEV), and I have to admit to them that I'm very concerned as well.
I also did say it would still be rare in new cars, and that any cases would be anecdotal, and gave those vids as examples.
Nothing I said so far above is false or FUD. It's simply being honest.
I also did say it would still be rare in new cars, and that any cases would be anecdotal, and gave those vids as examples.
Nothing I said so far above is false or FUD. It's simply being honest.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 19,656
Likes: 3,748
From: California
Didn't I say it was a concern to all electric vehicles? I know people ask me all the time about the hybrid battery (whether HEV or PHEV), and I have to admit to them that I'm very concerned as well.
I also did say it would still be rare in new cars, and that any cases would be anecdotal, and gave those vids as examples.
Nothing I said so far above is false or FUD. It's simply being honest.
I also did say it would still be rare in new cars, and that any cases would be anecdotal, and gave those vids as examples.
Nothing I said so far above is false or FUD. It's simply being honest.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,183
Likes: 244
From: New York
200k miles on 10yr old Civic or Camry is nothing and its just as efficient as it was new. Not so for EVs.
EV battery costs more than the car value itself to replace currently - I’m not talking about hybrids.
Again when your stuck in traffic tomorrow - look around and see how many old cars are around you. I still see bunch of 2nd gen GS every day and newest one is 20 YEARS old! My uncle’s daily is a 30yr old Towncar. The amount of old pickup trucks still running is crazy. There is a lot of people that rely on older / cheaper cars.
Advanced
Joined: Feb 2024
Posts: 558
Likes: 130
From: NJ/FL
A battery failure is also not the same as a headlight failure, or something minor. It is a substantial expense, even for hybrids with small packs, and has always been a concern for incoming people, so I never make light of it when I discuss it.
Here is a site that actually does try to get some data out
https://www.recurrentauto.com/resear...batteries-last
Battery failure rate for BEVs seem to be 1.5% so far (although it is self reported, and so the data is soft), and varies between manufacturers. They do mention data is scarce still because of the newness.
Some common model years that are older seem to have higher rates of failure, which I think is expected since they are older:
2013 Tesla Model S (8.5%)
2014 Tesla Model S (7.3%)
2015 Tesla Model S (3.5%)
2011 Nissan LEAF (8.3%)
2012 Nissan LEAF (3.5%)
7% failure in a car that is only 10 years old is NOT insignificant.
Last edited by asj2024; Mar 20, 2024 at 09:01 PM.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 19,656
Likes: 3,748
From: California
You didn’t address my question about affordability for low income folks and young people with their first car.
200k miles on 10yr old Civic or Camry is nothing and its just as efficient as it was new. Not so for EVs.
EV battery costs more than the car value itself to replace currently - I’m not talking about hybrids.
Again when your stuck in traffic tomorrow - look around and see how many old cars are around you. I still see bunch of 2nd gen GS every day and newest one is 20 YEARS old! My uncle’s daily is a 30yr old Towncar. The amount of old pickup trucks still running is crazy. There is a lot of people that rely on older / cheaper cars.
200k miles on 10yr old Civic or Camry is nothing and its just as efficient as it was new. Not so for EVs.
EV battery costs more than the car value itself to replace currently - I’m not talking about hybrids.
Again when your stuck in traffic tomorrow - look around and see how many old cars are around you. I still see bunch of 2nd gen GS every day and newest one is 20 YEARS old! My uncle’s daily is a 30yr old Towncar. The amount of old pickup trucks still running is crazy. There is a lot of people that rely on older / cheaper cars.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 19,656
Likes: 3,748
From: California
15 years? In the Prius it has been as low as 10 years, and of course battery failures do occur even earlier than that.
A battery failure is also not the same as a headlight failure, or something minor. It is a substantial expense, even for hybrids with small packs, and has always been a concern for incoming people, so I never make light of it when I discuss it.
Here is a site that actually does try to get some data out
https://www.recurrentauto.com/resear...batteries-last
Battery failure rate for BEVs seem to be 1.5% so far (although it is self reported, and so the data is soft), and varies between manufacturers. They do mention data is scarce still because of the newness.
Some common model years that are older seem to have higher rates of failure, which I think is expected since they are older:
2013 Tesla Model S (8.5%)
2014 Tesla Model S (7.3%)
2015 Tesla Model S (3.5%)
2011 Nissan LEAF (8.3%)
2012 Nissan LEAF (3.5%)
A battery failure is also not the same as a headlight failure, or something minor. It is a substantial expense, even for hybrids with small packs, and has always been a concern for incoming people, so I never make light of it when I discuss it.
Here is a site that actually does try to get some data out
https://www.recurrentauto.com/resear...batteries-last
Battery failure rate for BEVs seem to be 1.5% so far (although it is self reported, and so the data is soft), and varies between manufacturers. They do mention data is scarce still because of the newness.
Some common model years that are older seem to have higher rates of failure, which I think is expected since they are older:
2013 Tesla Model S (8.5%)
2014 Tesla Model S (7.3%)
2015 Tesla Model S (3.5%)
2011 Nissan LEAF (8.3%)
2012 Nissan LEAF (3.5%)