2019 Toyota Supra
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,365
Likes: 2,765
From: Calgary, AB
You’ve seem to have gotten into your fillings regarding the RC-F. You certainly have the right to defend it, but it’s never been looked upon as superior to any of the cars you called out in your above post.
The RC-F is the car I recommend for a guy who wants to track and doesn’t want to be bothered with high maintenance bills. It’s a very reliable fun to drive car, but it’s goal was never Nurburgring, SpA lap times etc. like I said a dollar short and a day late. Had Lexus built the RC-F in 2010 or so, we would be having a completely different conversation right now.
The fact that it has an obsolete concept N/A high revving V8 engine when all others have moved away from it is the main defining feature that sets it apart (and my reason for buying it)
Looks right at home on Nürburgring as a ring taxi (duel with 997 Porsche 911 at 7:04)
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; Jan 16, 2019 at 09:28 PM.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 11
From: California
Bias for calling the Acura NSX a flop? No. It was a flop.
Bias for calling BMW reliability trash? No. BMW is known to have horrible reliability.
I would say its bias from you, because you are a BMW owner, that you are defending BMW's reliability on a Lexus forum.
Yeah. There are two types of people in this world. 80% of the people will trash this Supra and 20% will buy a failed product. I mean, even the Acura NSX has costumers. Hell even the Acura ZDX did. People buy what people want but it doesn't mean its going to be a good product.
Last edited by BippuLexus; Jan 16, 2019 at 08:05 PM.
Lead Lap
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 608
Likes: 89
From: Ohio
Bias? Lol.
Bias for calling the Acura NSX a flop? No. It was a flop.
Bias for calling BMW reliability trash? No. BMW is known to have horrible reliability.
I would say its bias from you, because you are a BMW owner, that you are defending BMW's reliability on a Lexus forum.
Yeah. There are two types of people in this world. 80% of the people will trash this Supra and 20% will buy a failed product. I mean, even the Acura NSX has costumers. Hell even the Acura ZDX did. People buy what people want but it doesn't mean its going to be a good product.
Bias for calling the Acura NSX a flop? No. It was a flop.
Bias for calling BMW reliability trash? No. BMW is known to have horrible reliability.
I would say its bias from you, because you are a BMW owner, that you are defending BMW's reliability on a Lexus forum.
Yeah. There are two types of people in this world. 80% of the people will trash this Supra and 20% will buy a failed product. I mean, even the Acura NSX has costumers. Hell even the Acura ZDX did. People buy what people want but it doesn't mean its going to be a good product.
Regarding flops, there are many flops that happen to be great cars.
My definition of a Flop is a vehicle where the manufacturer invested serious R&D into it, and it didn’t sell well as the manufacturer intended.
The ‘18 NSX is a flop, awesome very well sorted car, I just tracked it 8 intensive laps in Dec & I’d rather own it over 991Turbo.
The 2005-2006 Ford GT was a flop when it originally went on sale.
The 2nd gen Audi R8 is flop, not selling as well as first generation.
The GS-F is a flop
The Lexus LC is a flop
The Alfa 4C is a flop
The Alfa Guilia is a flop
The Porsche 718 is a flop
The BMW i8 is a flop
And I’m sure I could name a slew of other great product that are flops too.
My point is a great car can be a flop, but that doesn’t make it a bad product. There are a myriad of reasons why a automobile can fail at selling well for its prospective manufacturer. On the contrary just because a vehicle sells well also doesn’t make a good automobile either.
Last edited by highrev6; Jan 16, 2019 at 09:09 PM.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,577
Likes: 391
From: PA
Well, they were dumb enough to get rid of what IMO was probably the best mass-production hydraulic power-steering system in the world and substitute the electric steering. That, alone, took away the only reason I'd ever want to purchase or lease a BMW.....along with the superb suspension ride/handling characteristics.
It's so strange, all those years I was working and wanted a BMW, that was it--the steering. I was a young buck and my cousin had a E36 M3 and let me take it--man did I feel defeated going back to my Maxima. Wasn't in a financial position to get the 2000 328ci (I remember many thought the steering was too light and BMW retrofitted racks for anyone who wanted it--they have always been that type of car co--giving loaners for months and years due to takata, again due to a blower motor harness?), nor the 330ci. Finally my ship came in with the 2007 335i.
Because I drive so many rental cars (I just got a statement yesterday saying I had 41 rental days in 2018, yikes), somehow, my involuntary muscles or something are quite used to electric power steering. I will say it again--I think Chevy has one of the better systems, maybe they are a generation ahead.
I spent 2 days in December with a 2018 330i, was ok with it, definitely ok with the mpgs, the shakiness of the engine, the noise. When I got my car back? Wow. That steering is one of the best. Really high effort, and really precise. I'm keeping my car indefinitely for that, and the stick. Actually I keep all my cars and get a new one if it makes sense, as shown by the 1998 Maxima purchased new. It's the one car garage that is quite limiting!
Lexus Champion
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 13,273
Likes: 1,889
From: WA
Lap times can prove/disprove these comments, but man, this is confidence... (where did they come up with 4.4 0-60 for the BMW?)
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ring-lap-time/
Nurburgring lap times have become a crucial data point for high-performance vehicles. Automakers have claimed 'Ring lap records for everything from hybrid hypercars to front-drive hatchbacks and even SUVs.
So it's a little bit surprising that Toyota hasn't publicized an official Nurburgring lap time for the 2020 Supra. But at the 2019 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, Supra chief engineer Tetsuya Tada hinted at what he believes the new sports car will be capable of achieving at the 'Ring.
"We haven't had an official time attack yet," Tada told R&T through an interpreter. The engineering boss explained that the car would likely run into its 155-mph speed limiter on the Nurburgring's lengthy straightaway, hampering its lap time. "One day, perhaps, we cut the speed limiter and try the time attack," he said. "But even just driving it as it is, it's really fast. On the old course, it's very easy to break eights—7:50, 7:40. It will do that easily."
Compare that to the new BMW Z4, which was developed alongside the new Supra. The two cars share a platform, and their suspension and braking components are nearly identical. They offer the same 3.0-liter turbo straight-six engine and eight-speed automatic transmission, though the top-spec Z4 M40i makes 382 horsepower and 369 lb-ft, compared to the Supra's 335 horsepower and 365 lb-ft.
Tada says the hardtop-only Supra is lighter and more rigid than the soft-top BMW, which could explain how the Supra out-accelerates the Z4 (a 4.1-second 0-60 sprint, compared to 4.4 for the BMW). And while BMW has not claimed an official Nurburgring lap time for the Z4, German publication Sport Auto ran a 7:55 in a preproduction Z4 M40i.
Of course, there's only one way to find out what the Supra can do at the Nurburgring. Consider this our plea: Toyota, take it to the 'Ring for an official timed lap.
So it's a little bit surprising that Toyota hasn't publicized an official Nurburgring lap time for the 2020 Supra. But at the 2019 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, Supra chief engineer Tetsuya Tada hinted at what he believes the new sports car will be capable of achieving at the 'Ring.
"We haven't had an official time attack yet," Tada told R&T through an interpreter. The engineering boss explained that the car would likely run into its 155-mph speed limiter on the Nurburgring's lengthy straightaway, hampering its lap time. "One day, perhaps, we cut the speed limiter and try the time attack," he said. "But even just driving it as it is, it's really fast. On the old course, it's very easy to break eights—7:50, 7:40. It will do that easily."
Compare that to the new BMW Z4, which was developed alongside the new Supra. The two cars share a platform, and their suspension and braking components are nearly identical. They offer the same 3.0-liter turbo straight-six engine and eight-speed automatic transmission, though the top-spec Z4 M40i makes 382 horsepower and 369 lb-ft, compared to the Supra's 335 horsepower and 365 lb-ft.
Tada says the hardtop-only Supra is lighter and more rigid than the soft-top BMW, which could explain how the Supra out-accelerates the Z4 (a 4.1-second 0-60 sprint, compared to 4.4 for the BMW). And while BMW has not claimed an official Nurburgring lap time for the Z4, German publication Sport Auto ran a 7:55 in a preproduction Z4 M40i.
Of course, there's only one way to find out what the Supra can do at the Nurburgring. Consider this our plea: Toyota, take it to the 'Ring for an official timed lap.
Lap times are have a lot to do with the driver, and certainly don't tell how the car drives. Although certainly capable, The RC-F feels big, heavy and more like a muscle car. And yet it's still more fun to drive than LC500 that's geared towards luxury.
Toyota simply does not have a proper platform to built the Supra on, and not willing to invest in it. Even the RC was half assedly slapped together from several different chassis.
Toyota simply does not have a proper platform to built the Supra on, and not willing to invest in it. Even the RC was half assedly slapped together from several different chassis.
Lead Lap
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,918
Likes: 305
From: NY
Lap times are have a lot to do with the driver, and certainly don't tell how the car drives. Although certainly capable, The RC-F feels big, heavy and more like a muscle car. And yet it's still more fun to drive than LC500 that's geared towards luxury.
Toyota simply does not have a proper platform to built the Supra on, and not willing to invest in it. Even the RC was half assedly slapped together from several different chassis.
Toyota simply does not have a proper platform to built the Supra on, and not willing to invest in it. Even the RC was half assedly slapped together from several different chassis.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 11
From: California
I don’t know if reliability is a first priority for people shopping for 2 seater sports cars. Fortunately for a person buying a 2 seater they are most likely well off. So fun factor and looks and exclusivity hold prioritiy over how well the car runs. BMW may not be super reliable like Toyota’s, but they know how to make a fun to drive car. The inline 6 is BMW’s forté. The 8 speed ZF gearbox has good track record. I think the A90 Supra will be fairly reliable.
Regarding flops, there are many flops that happen to be great cars.
My definition of a Flop is a vehicle where the manufacturer invested serious R&D into it, and it didn’t sell well as the manufacturer intended.
The ‘18 NSX is a flop, awesome very well sorted car, I just tracked it 8 intensive laps in Dec & I’d rather own it over 991Turbo.
The 2005-2006 Ford GT was a flop when it originally went on sale.
The 2nd gen Audi R8 is flop, not selling as well as first generation.
The GS-F is a flop
The Lexus LC is a flop
The Alfa 4C is a flop
The Alfa Guilia is a flop
The Porsche 718 is a flop
The BMW i8 is a flop
And I’m sure I could name a slew of other great product that are flops too.
My point is a great car can be a flop, but that doesn’t make it a bad product. There are a myriad of reasons why a automobile can fail at selling well for its prospective manufacturer. On the contrary just because a vehicle sells well also doesn’t make a good automobile either.
Regarding flops, there are many flops that happen to be great cars.
My definition of a Flop is a vehicle where the manufacturer invested serious R&D into it, and it didn’t sell well as the manufacturer intended.
The ‘18 NSX is a flop, awesome very well sorted car, I just tracked it 8 intensive laps in Dec & I’d rather own it over 991Turbo.
The 2005-2006 Ford GT was a flop when it originally went on sale.
The 2nd gen Audi R8 is flop, not selling as well as first generation.
The GS-F is a flop
The Lexus LC is a flop
The Alfa 4C is a flop
The Alfa Guilia is a flop
The Porsche 718 is a flop
The BMW i8 is a flop
And I’m sure I could name a slew of other great product that are flops too.
My point is a great car can be a flop, but that doesn’t make it a bad product. There are a myriad of reasons why a automobile can fail at selling well for its prospective manufacturer. On the contrary just because a vehicle sells well also doesn’t make a good automobile either.
The ‘18 NSX is a flop, awesome very well sorted car, I just tracked it 8 intensive laps in Dec & I’d rather own it over 991Turbo.
The NSX is a flop. They barely made over 150 cars last year. If it was a good car, it would have sold more.
The 2005-2006 Ford GT was a flop when it originally went on sale.
It was a flop and the old Ford GT were trash. These were the Ford GT that couldn't even beat a Lexus IS350. The new Ford GT is perfect and right with the return of the Coyote engine.
The 2nd gen Audi R8 is flop, not selling as well as first generation.
The 2nd Gen Audi R8 is a flop and has became trash because the update they performed on the car was not good enough to keep up the competition.
The GS-F is a flop.
Yes. The GS-F is a bad car.
The Lexus LC is a flop
No. The Lexus LC is not a flop. It did what Lexus wanted it to do. It was a halo car. People love this car and its design. It sold little because its expensive coupe in a SUV Market.
The Alfa 4C is a flop
The Alfa Guilia is a flop
Guilia is not a flop. Its highly popular.
The Porsche 718 is a flop
The BMW i8 is a flop
The thing is - I know there are good products that flop but some on your list flopped because they are trash. And this Supra will make the same mistake as the NSX. Its already not fairing well on the Supra forums, the people that actually care about the car the most. This will appeal to a Toyota fan that secretly loves BMW and BMW fans that want a 2 seater hard-top.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,365
Likes: 2,765
From: Calgary, AB
^^^
Giulia is barely selling with huge incentives on it so he is right, sales are very poor. There are even rumors of Alfa reconsidering staying in NA. Look it up. Also, Nissan GTR is the slowest selling car in the US with a 200 days/unit life on the lot. I agree with him that sales do not determine if a car is good or bad.
Giulia is barely selling with huge incentives on it so he is right, sales are very poor. There are even rumors of Alfa reconsidering staying in NA. Look it up. Also, Nissan GTR is the slowest selling car in the US with a 200 days/unit life on the lot. I agree with him that sales do not determine if a car is good or bad.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,216
Likes: 250
From: New York
Lap times are have a lot to do with the driver, and certainly don't tell how the car drives. Although certainly capable, The RC-F feels big, heavy and more like a muscle car. And yet it's still more fun to drive than LC500 that's geared towards luxury.
Toyota simply does not have a proper platform to built the Supra on, and not willing to invest in it. Even the RC was half assedly slapped together from several different chassis.
Toyota simply does not have a proper platform to built the Supra on, and not willing to invest in it. Even the RC was half assedly slapped together from several different chassis.
Considering the new gen IS will also use this platform, then it definitely could be shortened to fit a more dedicated sports car function compared to luxury LC version.
Put in the already developed new 3.5 v6 tt - boom you got a TOYOTA Supra not a BMW Zupra.
The best alternative would have been to work TOGETHER with BMW and create a truly special car. Take the B58 motor and build it up with strong internals. Put in custom Supra interior geared to the driver etc. So what if it costs you an extra Billion $$$ - what something like that would do for your marketing and reputation will make up for it. Toyota is sitting on piles of $$$$ - once every 20years they can blow some on a Supra.
Last edited by RNM GS3; Jan 17, 2019 at 10:46 AM.