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I saw this video, these guys are bias. They loved the car but tried to pretend they hated it. 99 percent of people aren't going to track this car, and the 1 percent who do will spend $10k to upgrade the brakes, suspension and tires, and it will still be cheaper than an M3 or M4, which are cars I love BTW
$10k is a stretch. I’ve tracked my car on stock brakes, tires and suspension. My suspension is still stock. The M3P owner I talked to told me he upgraded his pads and tires. Everything else is stock.
Originally Posted by swajames
The traditional delineation between luxury, daily and performance cars has never been more blurred. What used to be clear and obvious to the enthusiast really isn't any longer. There's no question at the broad periphery, you're not going to go around a track in a mainstream EV as fast as you could in say a 911 but then again that EV is quieter and smoother than most luxury cars. But if you were to draw the Venn diagram for luxury, performance and daily drivability, the EV is going to have the biggest intersections.
Some luxury cars are whisper quiet. It’s no secret EVs have wind/tire noise something you don’t find too often in your luxury vehicles. Add all the amenities and a high performance powertrain now which is more smooth or quiet is a strong argument.
2 of my friends drive Porsche. One has a 911 turbo manual AWD. Other has a GT4. The 911 owner tracks a S2k. The GT4 owner has owned/tracked Civic Type R, C7 Grand Sport, S2K, Elantra N. In our conversations about cars in general, neither of them are considering adding an EV to their collection. It’s not a knock on them.
EVs are great commuters like your Camrys and Accords and CUVs. EVs have the performance advantage over the likes but imo holds no comparison to 911s, GT4, GT3, GT2. One thing an EV will never have is soul that you get from a gas vehicle especially a high performance gas vehicle. Watch a video of an EV on the track then watch a video of a gas car on the same track. IMO, it’s not a comparison.
I will track a 911 or Supra or Type R and in the same breath I will daily an EV. In the end it comes down to personal preference. I took my daughter to ballet🩰 practice this week in my track car. Nothing like rowing gears. In the morning, I use the PHEV to drop the kids off at school.
$10k is a stretch. I’ve tracked my car on stock brakes, tires and suspension. My suspension is still stock. The M3P owner I talked to told me he upgraded his pads and tires. Everything else is stock.
Some luxury cars are whisper quiet. It’s no secret EVs have wind/tire noise something you don’t find too often in your luxury vehicles. Add all the amenities and a high performance powertrain now which is more smooth or quiet is a strong argument.
2 of my friends drive Porsche. One has a 911 turbo manual AWD. Other has a GT4. The 911 owner tracks a S2k. The GT4 owner has owned/tracked Civic Type R, C7 Grand Sport, S2K, Elantra N. In our conversations about cars in general, neither of them are considering adding an EV to their collection. It’s not a knock on them.
EVs are great commuters like your Camrys and Accords and CUVs. EVs have the performance advantage over the likes but imo holds no comparison to 911s, GT4, GT3, GT2. One thing an EV will never have is soul that you get from a gas vehicle especially a high performance gas vehicle. Watch a video of an EV on the track then watch a video of a gas car on the same track. IMO, it’s not a comparison.
I will track a 911 or Supra or Type R and in the same breath I will daily an EV. In the end it comes down to personal preference. I took my daughter to ballet🩰 practice this week in my track car. Nothing like rowing gears. In the morning, I use the PHEV to drop the kids off at school.
Actually, that's probably all it needs is brakes and tires. I've read that Tesla has the brake overheating warning way too aggressive. When the Polestar 2 first came out, an owner took it on the Nurburgring and it kept pulling power and retracting the seatbelt to tight. Polestar pushed an OTA update which fixed the issue with pulling power and aggressive seatbelt tightening and he was able to complete it with no issues
Lets not say people are biased because they disagree with you.
everyone, including you, is biased.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
I would take an M3 over a Model 3 or Y every day of the week though, way more interesting and desirable car IMO, and an entirely different car. Nobody is cross shopping the two.
sounds biased to me. and i disagree no one will cross shop the two with the new model 3 performance. have you driven even the non performance new model 3?
I would also question how many $100k+ sports cars you've driven.
so quick to judge what everyone has done or not without knowing.
A car of that caliber offers SO much more to the driver than simply being fast in a straight line and handling well.
a bmw m3 is a noisy fast sports sedan. a model 3 performance is a silent fast sports sedan. what is so much more?
This is part of what frustrates me about Tesla hype,
not sure why you would get frustrated. it's call an opinion. everyone has 'em.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
your outlook is not objective.
neither is anyone's.
Originally Posted by swajames
But if you were to draw the Venn diagram for luxury, performance and daily drivability, the EV is going to have the biggest intersections.
haha, you had to go there.
Originally Posted by AMIRZA786
I'll give you a hint. If it's a Camry, Accord, Civic (excluding Type R), Altima or Sentra, chances are the owner thinks it's fast.
Absolutely, you just have to work to ignore those biases and be as objective as you can.
sounds biased to me. and i disagree no one will cross shop the two with the new model 3 performance. have you driven even the non performance new model 3?
Yes I have, it’s a great car but it’s nothing like an M3.
a bmw m3 is a noisy fast sports sedan. a model 3 performance is a silent fast sports sedan. what is so much more?
The “noise” is part of it. The M3 offers the feel and emotion of a working IC machine, it offers a much more dramatic style inside and out, it offers that in a package that isn’t shared with a ton of Ubers and that hundreds of thousands of other cars on the road are identical to.
When you replace your LC500 with a Model 3 Performance I’ll take notice. You have both types of cars, which proves my point.
Performance... yes. Daily... mostly yes. Luxury... No. Whoever includes Luxury in EVs has not experienced luxury or has a different definition/reference point about luxury. And of course, that's my opinion.
One of the primary defining characteristics of luxury is smooth, quiet, effortless power. Something EV powertrains do better than any other powertrain. Current EVs can absolutely fall short on other aspects that define luxury, but that's an implementation problem not a platform problem.
Performance... yes. Daily... mostly yes. Luxury... No. Whoever includes Luxury in EVs has not experienced luxury or has a different definition/reference point about luxury. And of course, that's my opinion.
This sounds eerily similar to what I heard about Lexus when they first hit the scene. They were seen as an imposter, not "true" luxury.
Yes I have, it’s a great car but it’s nothing like an M3.
well i wasn't comparing the non-performance model 3 to the M3. the performance model 3 is obviously much faster and with adaptive dampers will handle a lot better. would it win on a track vs and M3? i don't know. what will also be interesting is how long before bmw brings out a performance ev that can wax their own m3. i don't think it will be long.
The “noise” is part of it. The M3 offers the feel and emotion of a working IC machine,
it has the 'feels', ok.
it offers a much more dramatic style inside and out,
'dramatic style' imo = ugly in this case.
it offers that in a package that isn’t shared with a ton of Ubers and that hundreds of thousands of other cars on the road are identical to.
you haven't spent much time in europe is seems.
When you replace your LC500 with a Model 3 Performance I’ll take notice. You have both types of cars, which proves my point.
doesn't prove anything, but fyi, i'm considering it.
Originally Posted by 1111GS
Whoever includes Luxury in EVs has not experienced luxury or has a different definition/reference point about luxury. And of course, that's my opinion.
bmw disagrees with their i7. mercedes disagrees with their ev models even if the styling hasn't been a hit. lucid is pretty luxurious.
Originally Posted by LeX2K
This sounds eerily similar to what I heard about Lexus when they first hit the scene. They were seen as an imposter, not "true" luxury.
exactly, it's only a matter of time before these "but what about" things fade away.
Saying the M3 and Model 3P aren't competitors is like saying the C63 isn't a competitor just because it's a 4-pot PHEV. They are all absolutely made to accomplish the same thing.
Performance... yes. Daily... mostly yes. Luxury... No. Whoever includes Luxury in EVs has not experienced luxury or has a different definition/reference point about luxury. And of course, that's my opinion.
I can't agree with this at all. A BMW i7, Mercedes EQS, Rolls Royce Spectre, these are incredible luxury cars that deliver incredible driving experiences. The i7 is simply the most luxurious driving vehicle I have ever driven. Its a better luxury car than my S580, the only reason I didnt get one was travel to WV, and the challenging styling.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
well i wasn't comparing the non-performance model 3 to the M3. the performance model 3 is obviously much faster and with adaptive dampers will handle a lot better. would it win on a track vs and M3? i don't know. what will also be interesting is how long before bmw brings out a performance ev that can wax their own m3. i don't think it will be long.
Its still not the same thing. An EV can never deliver the kind of visceral feel and thrill you get out of something like an M3. It just isn't the same. Thats not to say its not worthwhile, but if you're somebody who wants a car with that kind of visceral mechanical feel, no EV is going to match that.
it has the 'feels', ok.
"Feels" are a huge part of what makes a car like that what it is. Its all about "feels"
'dramatic style' imo = ugly in this case.
Depends on the car and the user, but its not a car you see 4 of at every light is the point, thats part of why its not the same. Anyways your LC isn't ugly, there are a lot of beautiful cars out there. I also wouldn't call the Model 3 "great looking", its okay looking, kinda awkward and ho hum sedan looking. I consider the Model Y ugly IMO.
you haven't spent much time in europe is seems.
I don't live in europe, so what happens in europe doesn't mean much to me. In any event, how many Lexus LC taxis are there?
doesn't prove anything, but fyi, i'm considering it.
Uh huh, I'll believe it when I see it.
Originally Posted by geko29
My bank account disagrees with you.
Yeah I was behind the times on that one!
Originally Posted by Motorola
Saying the M3 and Model 3P aren't competitors is like saying the C63 isn't a competitor just because it's a 4-pot PHEV. They are all absolutely made to accomplish the same thing.
I agree 100% the current C63 is not a competitor. Their engine choice ruined it, and sales have totally gone through the floor. It does however still create visceral feeling and mechanical engagement.
They're just different...you're going to have a hard time convincing people that love high end sports cars that they should buy an EV because in that sort of car the EV really doesn't deliver a comparable or better experience. Mainstream cars, luxury cars are a different story. EVs make great driving appliances, but when it comes to them being engaging machines that attract somebody who wants a sports car experience its a different matter. Certainly no 4 door mainstream looking sedan like a Model 3 is going to do that no matter how fast it is. Even an M3 or E63 or S63 or M5 etc doesn't really replace the kind of experience you get in a true 2 door sports car.
Well I feel vindicated knowing I'm not alone in my opinion, and that I'm not under some Elon Musk brainwashing spell. I personally find EV's fun to drive, and exhilarating. The Model 3 Performance is so freaking fast, you actually have to brace yourself before launching. My co worker who did the test drive yesterday couldn't stop talking about it, even today. Which means it had an impact on him. My suggestion is if one finds ICE more exciting, stick to ICE. I for one am totally addicted to buttery smooth power delivered instantly
Last edited by AMIRZA786; Sep 26, 2024 at 03:13 PM.
In the morning, I use the PHEV to drop the kids off at school.
what is so much more?
