Finally test drove the LS500...
02-23-18, 03:21 PM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Finally test drove the LS500...
This afternoon I was able to sit in and drive at length a new LS500, highly loaded with an MSRP of $103,000. Car was black (caviar which is a metallic black) with a black interior, AWD w/ air suspension. 20" wheels on Bridgestone runflats. Power rear seats, etc...just not the executive package (no ottoman, no kriko glass for instance). I followed this drive up with an identical drive in my 2017 LS460L, RWD w/ air suspension with 19" wheels on Pirelli Cinturato P7 Plus tires. For the ride and drive portions all modes were tried, but largely both cars were in "COMFORT" suspension mode.
First off, let me begin by saying this is a VERY nice car. People who run it down and say that its not a nice car, or that it feels like a GS or whatever aren't being fair. Its a very nice car, but it is very different from the 2017 in a number of ways. I can absolutely see how a previous LS owner wouldn't like it. As a comparison, I see no reason why a previous LS owner wouldn't like an LS460. The LS500 is that different from what an LS has been traditionally.
I'll go through the exterior, interior, ride and drive and give my thoughts on the new car vs the old car.
Exterior:
I quite like the way the car looks in person. Despite physically being bigger than the outgoing car, it looks smaller in my opinion. The rear doors aren't as long, and the car is much lower. The hood specifically is much lower. The car is wider, but again looks narrower to me. Its a very different look than the outgoing car, I would say when I look at it I think more A7/CLS/6 Grand Coupe than I do A7/S Class/7 Series. It doesn't have the "presence" those cars have, which I don't personally think is a good thing. The car is very stylish, but it lacks elegance. The old car is not nearly as stylish, but it has an elegance, a maturity that the LS500 doesn't have, but which other "flagships" possess.
I quite like the PVD/Chrome 20' wheels everybody seems to hate. I also like that the car does have some chrome brightwork trim on it, which Lexus seems to be doing away with on other models.
Interior:
As others have said, this is really the car's strong suit. The interior quality and execution are fantastic. Clearly on another level from the previous car. Every material you touch is high quality, seat leathers are excellent, door materials are a step up, no hard touch plastic anywhere. One really significant exception is the adjustable seat belt height anchor which is no longer power operated, and is a very thin, cheap feeling plastic. Huge fail there IMHO. Ambient lighting is nice although I too wish that it had multiple color options. I like the floating door armrests.
But, the car is significantly tighter inside. The front of the roofline rakes down significantly as it approaches the windshield, and the windshield is much more steeply raked than before. Th result of this is the top of the headliner being a couple inches closer to your head, and lower down into your field of view than on the LS460, which has the result of making the cabin feel much tighter. The headliner on the LS500 w/ black interior is black vs grey in my LS460 w/ black interior which adds to that also. The way the front doors wrap up into the dash make the dash feel narrower too, which makes the cars feel narrower. Front seats are also narrower, and the console seems narrower. Car feels more intimate and sportier, but definitely less airy, and less roomy.
The back seat is a huge difference. With the front sear adjusted for me, the legroom in the back seat felt similar to that in my SWB 2015 LS460, if not slightly less, and when I got into the back seat of my 2017 LS460L behind the front seat adjusted the same way, it felt positively cavernous. I lay my briefcase down on its side in the rear passenger footwell behind the driver, and it doesn't fit without touching the base of the front seat, similar to my SWB LS460, in my LWB LS460L it has 4-5 inches before it touches the seat in front. The rear seating area of the LS500 is unquestionably significantly smaller than the outgoing LS460L. This would be a huge issue for me as the reason I wanted a LWB car was to have more room for my kids and so they wouldn't kick the seats. Well, they would definitely kick these seats, and with the wood trim on the back of the seats, it would be a big issue.
Getting more positive, front and rear seating is excellent, front seat adjustability is excellent, big upgrade there. I most liked the massage, which you can definitely feel! I thought the ML audio was a big improvement from the ML audio in my car.
The big HUD is big, and sharp. I don't personally like HUD displays so it doesn't do much for me, but its there. Instrumentation in the LS500 I don't care for. The gauge cluster is too small, I prefer a standard side by side analog or full digital analog type readout (a'la Mercedes). The dash is much lower than in the LS460, and thus the navigation screen is also much lower and you look notably down at the screen vs it being up in the drivers field of view in the 460.
Ergonomics are good, the RTC is much improved and doesn't bother me at all. All switchgear and controls feel high quality. I hate the e-shifter.
Ride and Drive
So as everybody knows I am a long time LS buyer, this is my 4th one, I had a 1998 LS400, a 2004 LS430, the 2015 LS460 SWB w/coil suspension and my current 2017 LS460L w/air suspension. So, how does the LS500 fit in? Am I sorry I went for the 17 LS460L instead of waiting for the LS500? The answer to that is no, I'm not. I am delighted to say that from a comfort perspective the car is very acceptable to me, which was my big worry. On the right tires I think it would be even closer to what I have, and the improved handling while not something that I really look for, would be an added bonus. However, the difference in style and feel, the dramatically smaller interior, and some of the design choices would keep me from going back in time and waiting, if I could. Having driven the car, I would have made the same deal I made last month in other words.
BUT, if I were at the end of my lease and the LS460s were gone and this was the only option I had in a new "Lexus LS" I would seriously consider it, and given the value proposition would likely get one.
So in short, I was impressed in some ways, not in others, and I agree if it had a V8 it would be a considerably better car.
First off, let me begin by saying this is a VERY nice car. People who run it down and say that its not a nice car, or that it feels like a GS or whatever aren't being fair. Its a very nice car, but it is very different from the 2017 in a number of ways. I can absolutely see how a previous LS owner wouldn't like it. As a comparison, I see no reason why a previous LS owner wouldn't like an LS460. The LS500 is that different from what an LS has been traditionally.
I'll go through the exterior, interior, ride and drive and give my thoughts on the new car vs the old car.
Exterior:
I quite like the way the car looks in person. Despite physically being bigger than the outgoing car, it looks smaller in my opinion. The rear doors aren't as long, and the car is much lower. The hood specifically is much lower. The car is wider, but again looks narrower to me. Its a very different look than the outgoing car, I would say when I look at it I think more A7/CLS/6 Grand Coupe than I do A7/S Class/7 Series. It doesn't have the "presence" those cars have, which I don't personally think is a good thing. The car is very stylish, but it lacks elegance. The old car is not nearly as stylish, but it has an elegance, a maturity that the LS500 doesn't have, but which other "flagships" possess.
I quite like the PVD/Chrome 20' wheels everybody seems to hate. I also like that the car does have some chrome brightwork trim on it, which Lexus seems to be doing away with on other models.
Interior:
As others have said, this is really the car's strong suit. The interior quality and execution are fantastic. Clearly on another level from the previous car. Every material you touch is high quality, seat leathers are excellent, door materials are a step up, no hard touch plastic anywhere. One really significant exception is the adjustable seat belt height anchor which is no longer power operated, and is a very thin, cheap feeling plastic. Huge fail there IMHO. Ambient lighting is nice although I too wish that it had multiple color options. I like the floating door armrests.
But, the car is significantly tighter inside. The front of the roofline rakes down significantly as it approaches the windshield, and the windshield is much more steeply raked than before. Th result of this is the top of the headliner being a couple inches closer to your head, and lower down into your field of view than on the LS460, which has the result of making the cabin feel much tighter. The headliner on the LS500 w/ black interior is black vs grey in my LS460 w/ black interior which adds to that also. The way the front doors wrap up into the dash make the dash feel narrower too, which makes the cars feel narrower. Front seats are also narrower, and the console seems narrower. Car feels more intimate and sportier, but definitely less airy, and less roomy.
The back seat is a huge difference. With the front sear adjusted for me, the legroom in the back seat felt similar to that in my SWB 2015 LS460, if not slightly less, and when I got into the back seat of my 2017 LS460L behind the front seat adjusted the same way, it felt positively cavernous. I lay my briefcase down on its side in the rear passenger footwell behind the driver, and it doesn't fit without touching the base of the front seat, similar to my SWB LS460, in my LWB LS460L it has 4-5 inches before it touches the seat in front. The rear seating area of the LS500 is unquestionably significantly smaller than the outgoing LS460L. This would be a huge issue for me as the reason I wanted a LWB car was to have more room for my kids and so they wouldn't kick the seats. Well, they would definitely kick these seats, and with the wood trim on the back of the seats, it would be a big issue.
Getting more positive, front and rear seating is excellent, front seat adjustability is excellent, big upgrade there. I most liked the massage, which you can definitely feel! I thought the ML audio was a big improvement from the ML audio in my car.
The big HUD is big, and sharp. I don't personally like HUD displays so it doesn't do much for me, but its there. Instrumentation in the LS500 I don't care for. The gauge cluster is too small, I prefer a standard side by side analog or full digital analog type readout (a'la Mercedes). The dash is much lower than in the LS460, and thus the navigation screen is also much lower and you look notably down at the screen vs it being up in the drivers field of view in the 460.
Ergonomics are good, the RTC is much improved and doesn't bother me at all. All switchgear and controls feel high quality. I hate the e-shifter.
Ride and Drive
- Ride Quality: The ride quality was better, and closer to the LS460L than I anticipated, even on the 20s (which have similar sidewall height to the 19s on the outgoing car) and the runflats. The car was a little sharper over bumps, and less floaty/glidey on the highway than my LS460L w/air, even in comfort mode. The suspension allowed a little more of the grain in the roadway and coarseness in the pavement through to the cabin. Around town though pretty similar, impact absorption similar. If you replaced the runflats with the same tires I have on mine (Pirelli Cinturato P7 Plus) I bet the ride would become very similar, to just a hair firmer. I would say the ride is 90% as comfortable as my LS460L w/ air. Really surprised me.
- Handling: HUGE improvement. I mean, wow. Planted, steady, very little roll in corners or pitch/dive in acceleration/braking. The handling/ride balance is truly excellent. Feels like a much smaller car. Took several offramps at a high rate of speed, really impressed. I would say the handling is 40% better than the LS460L w/air, and when you factor in that they achieved that while losing only 10% ride quality...thats a huge achievement! Truly is.
- Cabin noise: The LS500 is by and large just as quiet as my LS460L w/air. Little more tire noise, but again Bridgestone Runflats, the difference was similar to how my car felt before I put the Pirellis on. On the road, the LS500 has just a hair more wind noise, which surprised me because you would think that would be the easiest thing to engineer out of a car, the new flush seals, etc. Very similar though.
- Engine. So...the famous TTV6 vs V8 engine. So, the car is quick, power is good and strong, and it sounds great up in its rev-band for what it is. I drove the car on several roads that I drive on routinely, and when merging for instance I would look down and expect to be going 70 and find that I was doing 86-87. The accelerator pedal has a click in "WOT" indent at the bottom of its travel which I liked. So, power good. Here's the problem, its just not as smooth as the V8 either up at WOT or in other acceleration points commonly used when driving. Its louder, coarser. Its subtle, and its managed well, but the drivetrain does not feel as refined as what we had in the LS460, and I also don't feel its as refined as the I6 in the 740, or the TTV6 in the G90. I have not driven the 6 cyl S450. If I didn't have the LS460 to compare it to back to back I might not notice, but I do and I did and its there. In Sport + mode the engine note is totally different and is quite loud.
So as everybody knows I am a long time LS buyer, this is my 4th one, I had a 1998 LS400, a 2004 LS430, the 2015 LS460 SWB w/coil suspension and my current 2017 LS460L w/air suspension. So, how does the LS500 fit in? Am I sorry I went for the 17 LS460L instead of waiting for the LS500? The answer to that is no, I'm not. I am delighted to say that from a comfort perspective the car is very acceptable to me, which was my big worry. On the right tires I think it would be even closer to what I have, and the improved handling while not something that I really look for, would be an added bonus. However, the difference in style and feel, the dramatically smaller interior, and some of the design choices would keep me from going back in time and waiting, if I could. Having driven the car, I would have made the same deal I made last month in other words.
BUT, if I were at the end of my lease and the LS460s were gone and this was the only option I had in a new "Lexus LS" I would seriously consider it, and given the value proposition would likely get one.
So in short, I was impressed in some ways, not in others, and I agree if it had a V8 it would be a considerably better car.
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02-23-18, 07:36 PM
#2
Pole Position
awesome write up, i was waiting for your opinion.. i too sat in the car and the way you describe is spot on. It feels little cramped inside sort of the seats and arm rest and every thing is built around the driver.
02-23-18, 08:22 PM
#3
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Glad you enjoyed it!
02-25-18, 05:37 AM
#4
Pole Position
Excellent write up.
Just for fun, I compared the front and rear legroom of my LS430 to the LS500. The LS430 has a whopping 3 inches more front legroom while the LS500 only had 1.3 inches more rear legroom. Yet the LS500 is 9 inches longer overall. And, the LS500 only has 17 cu ft of cargo capacity while the LS430 has 20.2 cu ft. That is a significant difference.
How did Lexus take what was essentially a 460L and make it smaller with less cargo capacity than a 430? My 460L felt bigger inside than my 460, mostly in the rear. Where did all that space go?
Just for fun, I compared the front and rear legroom of my LS430 to the LS500. The LS430 has a whopping 3 inches more front legroom while the LS500 only had 1.3 inches more rear legroom. Yet the LS500 is 9 inches longer overall. And, the LS500 only has 17 cu ft of cargo capacity while the LS430 has 20.2 cu ft. That is a significant difference.
How did Lexus take what was essentially a 460L and make it smaller with less cargo capacity than a 430? My 460L felt bigger inside than my 460, mostly in the rear. Where did all that space go?
02-25-18, 07:09 AM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Excellent write up.
Just for fun, I compared the front and rear legroom of my LS430 to the LS500. The LS430 has a whopping 3 inches more front legroom while the LS500 only had 1.3 inches more rear legroom. Yet the LS500 is 9 inches longer overall. And, the LS500 only has 17 cu ft of cargo capacity while the LS430 has 20.2 cu ft. That is a significant difference.
How did Lexus take what was essentially a 460L and make it smaller with less cargo capacity than a 430? My 460L felt bigger inside than my 460, mostly in the rear. Where did all that space go?
Just for fun, I compared the front and rear legroom of my LS430 to the LS500. The LS430 has a whopping 3 inches more front legroom while the LS500 only had 1.3 inches more rear legroom. Yet the LS500 is 9 inches longer overall. And, the LS500 only has 17 cu ft of cargo capacity while the LS430 has 20.2 cu ft. That is a significant difference.
How did Lexus take what was essentially a 460L and make it smaller with less cargo capacity than a 430? My 460L felt bigger inside than my 460, mostly in the rear. Where did all that space go?
02-25-18, 12:51 PM
#7
[QUOTE=Bob04;10123839]Excellent write up.
Just for fun, I compared the front and rear legroom of my LS430 to the LS500. The LS430 has a whopping 3 inches more front legroom while the LS500 only had 1.3 inches more rear legroom. Yet the LS500 is 9 inches longer overall. And, the LS500 only has 17 cu ft of cargo capacity while the LS430 has 20.2 cu ft. That is a significant difference.
How did Lexus take what was essentially a 460L and make it smaller with less cargo capacity than a 430? My 460L felt bigger inside than my 460, mostly in the rear. Where did all that space go?[/QUOTE
Front legroom: I have a 09 LS460 and I put the seat all the way back. Would my legs fit into the drivers seat of the LS500?
Just for fun, I compared the front and rear legroom of my LS430 to the LS500. The LS430 has a whopping 3 inches more front legroom while the LS500 only had 1.3 inches more rear legroom. Yet the LS500 is 9 inches longer overall. And, the LS500 only has 17 cu ft of cargo capacity while the LS430 has 20.2 cu ft. That is a significant difference.
How did Lexus take what was essentially a 460L and make it smaller with less cargo capacity than a 430? My 460L felt bigger inside than my 460, mostly in the rear. Where did all that space go?[/QUOTE
Front legroom: I have a 09 LS460 and I put the seat all the way back. Would my legs fit into the drivers seat of the LS500?
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02-25-18, 12:58 PM
#8
Great evaluation.
At this point we have a pretty good feel if it's a car that suits our individual taste.
Radical change is going to turn off some existing customers, but hopefully for Lexus attract new customers.
We'll see in a year or so whether they can find enough buyers to keep it going (or if it goes the way of Scion)
I hope they do succeed. More competition benefits the consumer.
At this point we have a pretty good feel if it's a car that suits our individual taste.
Radical change is going to turn off some existing customers, but hopefully for Lexus attract new customers.
We'll see in a year or so whether they can find enough buyers to keep it going (or if it goes the way of Scion)
I hope they do succeed. More competition benefits the consumer.
02-25-18, 02:18 PM
#9
I had the chance to test drive a LS 500 on Saturday and here is a quick review.
The interior design is really much nicer in person. They did a great job on design As someone else posted on this site there is very little view thru the back window. I am sure it takes getting used to, but different than previous LS versions. I also thought the rear view mirror seems much closer to your face which I imagine is do to the slope of the windshield.
During the test ride I had the opportunity to floor the accelerator from a dead stop and both times it seemed like it took a half second or so for the car to react. This was the first turbo car I have driven but the take off seemed slower than a non turbo 6. Once it got going the car accelerated like a 400+ HP car.
As for the bad, I am 5'10" and there is very little headroom in the front with the seat completely lowered. In the back the headroom is even less. The salesman who went with me was 6' 4" and while taller than normal and had to recline the front seat to get comfortable. We sat in both a regular sunroof car and a panoramic roof car. He couldn't even sit in the back seat of the panoramic roof car.
The salesman said he has heard concerns about the headroom from other shoppers and while talking to a service writer I knew he said he also heard that concern.
It seems strange to me that with people getting taller, why they would take their top of the line and most expensive sedan and give it the least amount of headroom.
It will be interesting to see the feedback in a couple of months if Lexus will have to revise the seating position maybe by lowering the front and rear seat cushions.
For me it is a great redesign with what maybe a fatal flaw in determining a purchase
The interior design is really much nicer in person. They did a great job on design As someone else posted on this site there is very little view thru the back window. I am sure it takes getting used to, but different than previous LS versions. I also thought the rear view mirror seems much closer to your face which I imagine is do to the slope of the windshield.
During the test ride I had the opportunity to floor the accelerator from a dead stop and both times it seemed like it took a half second or so for the car to react. This was the first turbo car I have driven but the take off seemed slower than a non turbo 6. Once it got going the car accelerated like a 400+ HP car.
As for the bad, I am 5'10" and there is very little headroom in the front with the seat completely lowered. In the back the headroom is even less. The salesman who went with me was 6' 4" and while taller than normal and had to recline the front seat to get comfortable. We sat in both a regular sunroof car and a panoramic roof car. He couldn't even sit in the back seat of the panoramic roof car.
The salesman said he has heard concerns about the headroom from other shoppers and while talking to a service writer I knew he said he also heard that concern.
It seems strange to me that with people getting taller, why they would take their top of the line and most expensive sedan and give it the least amount of headroom.
It will be interesting to see the feedback in a couple of months if Lexus will have to revise the seating position maybe by lowering the front and rear seat cushions.
For me it is a great redesign with what maybe a fatal flaw in determining a purchase
02-25-18, 02:51 PM
#10
Pole Position
Great evaluation.
At this point we have a pretty good feel if it's a car that suits our individual taste.
Radical change is going to turn off some existing customers, but hopefully for Lexus attract new customers.
We'll see in a year or so whether they can find enough buyers to keep it going (or if it goes the way of Scion)
I hope they do succeed. More competition benefits the consumer.
At this point we have a pretty good feel if it's a car that suits our individual taste.
Radical change is going to turn off some existing customers, but hopefully for Lexus attract new customers.
We'll see in a year or so whether they can find enough buyers to keep it going (or if it goes the way of Scion)
I hope they do succeed. More competition benefits the consumer.
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JffGRY706 (02-03-20)
02-25-18, 03:40 PM
#11
Pole Position
Maybe the goal is to transition aging GS owners into the LS. The GS has a larger customer base, so making the LS more sporty and less luxo-barge might be their attempt to hold on to those customers as they make more money and prefer a nicer overall vehicle.
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ragabnh (03-13-18)
02-25-18, 04:57 PM
#12
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I own a 430 and I'm just surprised how far they have gone away from that formula. I desperately wanted them to reverse course and make a "new" 430. Big, roomy, conservative but elegant, smooth, ultra-quiet and comfortable. Just with updated safety features and electronic toys. Seems like the G90 is going with that formula. Maybe Lexus sees something in the market that everyone else doesn't see. Sales numbers will tell the story. Can't wait to read some reviews from owners.
02-25-18, 05:40 PM
#13
Instructor
Nice write up steve, alot of your points make sense from someone that enjoys the 460 and some of it is looking at with skewed lens a bit
Lexus did a great job for a lot of the points you mentioned,
Its obvious there real strategy is not going after owners of the ls460 the 70 year old american male married making 200k plus
but to make a world car that would appeal to the masses.. that would bridge the gap between the merc, bmw and audi
So for that lexus scored, they accomplished alot with the power train and the handling with the new platform
Its apparent to people like me and you the love a v8 it can't be replicated for the smoothness, power and instant gratification
but times are changing and this is the right move to move to the times, the v8 is too heavy in the nose anyway that sacrifices the handling offset u mention where the 460 is deficient.
the 460 was a great car 8 years ago and it is today
where the ls500 falls way to short is 22mpg and 26 combined in real world is not going to take the ls500 into the 2020 and above
my bet is on they fell short on the hydrogen program and had this as a fall back
10 years in the making and this is the best they could do doesn't add up.. and management should be fired just for the reason of the continued spindle grill and the user interface with nav/electronics
unacceptable on the most premium most perfectionist manufacturer. for that reason alone the car will never be what it should have been
caveat!!!!
they will sell a ton of these and thats what the mass appeal is going to love not me and u that want the loafy ride and comfort on the highway, times are changing
Lexus did a great job for a lot of the points you mentioned,
Its obvious there real strategy is not going after owners of the ls460 the 70 year old american male married making 200k plus
but to make a world car that would appeal to the masses.. that would bridge the gap between the merc, bmw and audi
So for that lexus scored, they accomplished alot with the power train and the handling with the new platform
Its apparent to people like me and you the love a v8 it can't be replicated for the smoothness, power and instant gratification
but times are changing and this is the right move to move to the times, the v8 is too heavy in the nose anyway that sacrifices the handling offset u mention where the 460 is deficient.
the 460 was a great car 8 years ago and it is today
where the ls500 falls way to short is 22mpg and 26 combined in real world is not going to take the ls500 into the 2020 and above
my bet is on they fell short on the hydrogen program and had this as a fall back
10 years in the making and this is the best they could do doesn't add up.. and management should be fired just for the reason of the continued spindle grill and the user interface with nav/electronics
unacceptable on the most premium most perfectionist manufacturer. for that reason alone the car will never be what it should have been
caveat!!!!
they will sell a ton of these and thats what the mass appeal is going to love not me and u that want the loafy ride and comfort on the highway, times are changing
02-25-18, 08:40 PM
#14
Driver School Candidate
Upon introduction I pre-ordered the GS450h; drove for 8 years.
Been driving the GS350 past 4 years.
Never been interested in the LS; too large for my taste.
Then I test drove the new LS two days ago...THEY nailed it!
The internal dimensions "feel" more similar to the GS than the LS460; same for exterior body lines/style.
It's been a great 12 year run with GS, but I'm all-in for LS500,
02-26-18, 04:38 PM
#15
So, I finally test drove one also, and I'm not totally sold yet.
Pros
I like the styling and the look of the front end
Interior looks great and much more modern
Heads up display was nice and not "in your face"
display screen is nice
Cons:
The car is now longer, but the trunk is smaller
Ride is harsher even in comfort mode with air suspension (likely due to the runflats which I would get rid of)
Touchpad is hard to use
ML Stereo no longer takes DVD Audio
No ski pass-through
Neutral
I liked the seats, but my wife didn't
The engine power is fine, but not as smooth/quiet as the V8 (but I'm not turned of because it's a V6)
ML stereo is nice, but should be better for a premium stereo
I went from being a definite buyer to a maybe. Now, I'd at least like to look at a new or used S450/550, Panamera or LS460.
Pros
I like the styling and the look of the front end
Interior looks great and much more modern
Heads up display was nice and not "in your face"
display screen is nice
Cons:
The car is now longer, but the trunk is smaller
Ride is harsher even in comfort mode with air suspension (likely due to the runflats which I would get rid of)
Touchpad is hard to use
ML Stereo no longer takes DVD Audio
No ski pass-through
Neutral
I liked the seats, but my wife didn't
The engine power is fine, but not as smooth/quiet as the V8 (but I'm not turned of because it's a V6)
ML stereo is nice, but should be better for a premium stereo
I went from being a definite buyer to a maybe. Now, I'd at least like to look at a new or used S450/550, Panamera or LS460.