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I might stop doing extended oil change intervals

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Old 11-26-15, 04:49 AM   #31
superdenso
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The advice I was given goes like this (phone call w/oil rep.): "...at 5k dump our oil/change the filter, then reinstall the oil."

When Toyo determines 10k safe with the paper filters/TGMO, maybe they would forward a letter with a sticker to put in the owner's manual. They havn't done it, so there is apprehension about their 5k paper filter on the 10k ride in a LS(even if the new cars are authorized to do so). On another note, with both a 10k oil and a syn/extended range filter by design, 9,500 is reasonable. However, low viscosity oil, and spirited or high speed driving are incongruent with the long interval mission. With that, 7.5k, or 6 months, on Mob1 0w30 began yesturday. Many post about TGMO extended changes, but few practice their words. *Sounds like a new thread topic I'll start right now.

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Old 11-26-15, 05:14 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Devh View Post
Turbo engines are different animal and it has a lot more to do with fuel management. It was also problematic with port injection. Direct injection on the hand and in a naturally aspirated vehicle actually has less fuel dilution simply because the metering of fuel is more precise and is quick to respond to fuel changes then port injection. This is why DI is better for emissions because it burns cleaner.
I think you're missing one key point, fuel pressure. Fuel pressure on a conventional port injected system is around 40psi...fuel pressure in a direct injection vehicle is around 300-700 depending on the manufacturer. Now the pressure that comes out of the injector is also much higher than a conventional stream, we may be talking in the 100's here...and it's sprayed right on top of that piston. I would have to believe there is quite a bit of fuel that escapes past those rings in that scenario, which in turn leads to some of the things mentioned in those articles (one of them really worries me, the soot, because that is a an engine wearing ingredient).

Now maybe I'm off on my pressures in the cylinder, but I know it's very high - it has to be - or else it won't be able to spray as the piston starts to rise towards the end of the intake stroke. That's the way it's been explained to me in classes I've taken.

The great thing with this engine - as everyone knows - is that it still incorporates that port injection system which keeps the carbon buildup off the valves. This is HUGE, because without it you'd be looking at a $2,000 $3,000 dollar carbon cleaning fee every 35,000 miles (like BMW and Audi). The bad thing is that there is two fuel systems to worry about, but both have been reliable on these cars.
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Old 11-26-15, 07:20 AM   #33
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Maybe the atomized particles slip past worn rings is plausible. But an avg engine can max > 750#'s of pressure. On the other hand, how the di systems resist oil mixing internally could be investigated.

Attachment:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...istons-feature

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Old 11-26-15, 09:18 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by superdenso View Post
Maybe the atomized particles slip past worn rings is plausible. But an avg engine can max > 750#'s of pressure. On the other hand, how the di systems resist oil mixing internally could be investigated.

Attachment:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...istons-feature
Excellent article, thanks. Like how they actually showed the individual piston designs of some various engines...and the piston weight, which seemed to hover around 2.5 pounds.
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Old 11-26-15, 09:37 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Doublebase View Post
I think you're missing one key point, fuel pressure. Fuel pressure on a conventional port injected system is around 40psi...fuel pressure in a direct injection vehicle is around 300-700 depending on the manufacturer. Now the pressure that comes out of the injector is also much higher than a conventional stream, we may be talking in the 100's here...and it's sprayed right on top of that piston. I would have to believe there is quite a bit of fuel that escapes past those rings in that scenario, which in turn leads to some of the things mentioned in those articles (one of them really worries me, the soot, because that is a an engine wearing ingredient).

Now maybe I'm off on my pressures in the cylinder, but I know it's very high - it has to be - or else it won't be able to spray as the piston starts to rise towards the end of the intake stroke. That's the way it's been explained to me in classes I've taken.

The great thing with this engine - as everyone knows - is that it still incorporates that port injection system which keeps the carbon buildup off the valves. This is HUGE, because without it you'd be looking at a $2,000 $3,000 dollar carbon cleaning fee every 35,000 miles (like BMW and Audi). The bad thing is that there is two fuel systems to worry about, but both have been reliable on these cars.
I don't know if the pressure of the fuel is enough during the intake stroke to get passed the rings considering the compression of the motor is much higher. I can see fuel dilution only occurring if there is a rich mixture already in the combustion chamber that gets past the rings in the form of blowby gases.
If there is excessive fuel or blowby gases it would clearly show up on an oil analysis and it would degrade oil in short order.

Here are some of my thoughts in regard to DI after investigating in a little deeper.
I believe the unburnt fuel is presenting itself in soot and carbon deposits and not necessarily as fuel dilution in the oil for a lot european manufactures which has been problematic. They way they have addressed this issue is addressing it with low SAP oils but the problem still persists.

In regard to Toyota's DI system I believe they have this problem licked due to engine management and design of the combustion chamber. I have never heard of one case of excessive carbon formation in the chamber or the valves although there might be but it would be pretty rare. All of the UOA that I have seen does not have a hint of any excessive ash, fuel and all of the TBNs have been in check except for one that the owner used ZMax. There was one recent UOA that showed excessive wear with unknown dealer oil however those numbers came down significantly when it was changed to known Synthetic.

The jury is still out but I believe using a quality synthetic oil that is formulated for this car is key.

There are owners excluding myself that are planning to push their cars to 10k RF being one of them and we will know if this car can handle the 10k oil change. Which reminds me that I still have a sample to send out. My car sees severe use because of many short trips and over a year of using the same oil.
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Old 11-26-15, 02:21 PM   #36
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...using a quality synthetic oil that is formulated for this car is key.
Formulated for the LS or formulated for all Yotas? The way Toyota sells cars it would stand to reason that the Camry and Corolla engines determine the formulation and would be the primary concern.

http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/04/02/toyota-camry-is-top-selling-car-in-america/
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Old 11-27-15, 04:17 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by superdenso View Post
An extended oil change interval might come under the "extreme load condition" mentioned in the owners manual. A conditional statement appears in the 2007 and 2015 manual.
Attachment 374529
See Specifications :
Oil viscosity (0W-20 is explained here as an example):
• The 0W in 0W-20 indicates the characteristic of the oil which
allows cold startability. Oils with a lower value before the W allow for
easier starting of the engine in cold weather.
• The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil
when the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one
with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at
high speeds, or under extreme load conditions
I have been using mobile 1 0w-20 for the past 2 oil changes and have had to add 2 quarts between oil changes (5000 miles). Since I only drive 5000 miles a year and most of my driving is 2 miles to work and 2 miles back home, I'd consider this extreme conditions. I am going to try 5w-30 for my next oil change. Curious to see if a higher weight would cut down on my oil burning issue which only began when I started to change the oil in my car myself with 0w-20. Ls460 with 77,000 miles.

Last edited by is150; 11-28-15 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 12-02-15, 06:33 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by is150 View Post
I have been using mobile 1 0w-20 for the past 2 oil changes and have had to add 2 quarts between oil changes (5000 miles). Since I only drive 5000 miles a year and most of my driving is 2 miles to work and 2 miles back home, I'd consider this extreme conditions. I am going to try 5w-30 for my next oil change. Curious to see if a higher weight would cut down on my oil burning issue which only began when I started to change the oil in my car myself with 0w-20. Ls460 with 77,000 miles.
I used Royal Purple 5w30 and switched to Mobil1 0w30. The 5w30 worked well, and the 0w30 yields equal results to date (about 500 miles so far).

Last edited by superdenso; 12-03-15 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 12-02-15, 07:20 PM   #39
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I'm 1200 miles into my latest oil change interval (2 weeks) and I checked it today and it was full (as expected). I'm using Napa full synthetic right now because I got a good deal on it (0w20). I'll check the level every 1000 miles to see if I'm using any - if it's like my other oil changes, I won't lose any oil until I reach 5k miles - at that point I'll decide what I'm going to do (add oil and extend it out to 7,500 plus miles, or just dump it).

I am considering going to a 5w30 weight and letting it run 10k (to see if it uses less oil after 5k miles).
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Old 12-09-15, 02:04 PM   #40
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I'm 1200 miles into my latest oil change interval (2 weeks) and I checked it today and it was full (as expected). I'm using Napa full synthetic right now because I got a good deal on it (0w20). I'll check the level every 1000 miles to see if I'm using any - if it's like my other oil changes, I won't lose any oil until I reach 5k miles - at that point I'll decide what I'm going to do (add oil and extend it out to 7,500 plus miles, or just dump it).

I am considering going to a 5w30 weight and letting it run 10k (to see if it uses less oil after 5k miles).
Put another 1,000 miles on the oil (2,000 total), and as expected it hasn't used a drop yet.
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Old 12-09-15, 02:44 PM   #41
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I've been noticing a few things when I go on these longer oil change intervals...after 5,000 miles my car starts to use oil. Now the first 5,000 miles?? Nothing, not a drop, but right after that it's like someone turns on a switch and the oil goes. I might put two quarts in between 5,000 to 7,500 miles...yet the first 5,000, not a drop.
I'm starting to notice the exact same thing. Makes no sense though.
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Old 12-09-15, 05:58 PM   #42
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I'm starting to notice the exact same thing. Makes no sense though.
I'm glad I'm not alone, and I feel it's totally acceptable to go 5k miles with zero/minimal oil use, and then experience it after 5k miles. It's just that I don't understand why it happens...makes me wonder if the oil should be changed at 5k, like the owner's manual states (although supposedly Lexus has said that you can go 10k miles on synthetic oil).
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Old 12-20-15, 04:46 PM   #43
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I had an interesting conversation with someone regarding oil - in of all places, a mountain bike forum - that I found interesting.


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Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
This is not at all toward you, just speaking in general to UOAs and the newer BITOG crowd. Please excuse the chip on my shoulder lol. I hate to even bring it up but UOA wear metal section is beyond worthless for determining engine wear and an oil's level of protection. UOAs are good for catching coolant in the oil, fuel dilution, a bad air filter, oxidized oil, TBN and TAN, etc. The wear metals section of the typical spectro wear metal section is a scam. I can't believe so many people accept it and don't question it. BITOG where the average "expert" doesn't know the first thing about an engine, they just begin regurgitating what they hear others saying within 2 days of signing up and think they're so smart for recommending the thinnest oils known to man for every application and the longest OCIs possible don't even question the validity of the wear metals section.

The spectro can only see very small particles, 3-5 microns, the ones the filter is not capable of catching. It's been shown the excessive wear typically produces large particles, larger than that test can "see" and sometimes large enough for the filter to pick up which also invalidates the test. Ever notice how 99% of the tests are within a very narrow range of wear metal percentage no matter if it's a Cummins diesel or a 2.0 4 banger Kia.

Going farther, good oils like Mobil One (even though they don't produce a true syn anymore) and Redline get bashed because the oxidation they remove from the engine shows up as wear metals. Ever wonder why wear metals will skyrocket when someone switches over to one of these great oils and gradually go down? It's right in this test's sweet spot in size.

I've torn down many engines. I've seen some that showed excessive wear metals that mic'd out to factory clearances. I've had my own engine in the GN self destructing with glittery oil, zero oil pressure at hot idle, upon teardown the rod bearings down to the shells, severe piston scuffing, and the pins nearly frozen in the pistons and the Blackstone wear metals showed my engine to be fine even though I could see the metal in the oil. It was producing large particles that the test wasn't picking up.

If you want a better indication, a particle count is one of two tests that will give a much more accurate indication as to what kind and how much wear is occurring. The best the typical spectro test is good for is if you get the oil tested frequently, once or twice per OCI and keep a database. Even then it's not accurate but sometimes you can catch an abnormality based on previous tests for that engine.
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Old 12-20-15, 11:42 PM   #44
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Blackstone....I haven't checked lately but back when all the 'oil analysis' companies sprung up, one of the big magazines ( I think Car & Driver) did a test of their own. They sent the same oil from the same engine to 4 or 5 different labs and the reports that came back were so varied they were essentially useless.
I'd love to read this article. Any chance you have a link handy? My apologies if it's already been linked here.

@doublebase - Thanks for sharing your experience. Very interesting.
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Old 12-21-15, 02:12 PM   #45
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Put another 1,000 miles on the oil (2,000 total), and as expected it hasn't used a drop yet.
Another 1,000k miles (3,000 total) and I was down a half quart using CARQUEST synthetic 0w20 weight. First time that has ever happened. I'll be keeping an eye on it...not feeling this CARQUEST oil, but it was free and I have another ten quarts of it
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