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It was not. It was old low tech with no room for improvement beyond its 200hp out of 3.8, while Japanese engines used modern tech and kept improving every year. It was hopelessly outdated and way behind the competition when GM finally put it to rest.
I have said about a million times that I'm not talking about the 00s, although here is a quote from a C&D article from a 2004 Pontiac road test..
"The supercharged 3.8-liter Series III helps the Grand Prix become a true hot-rod sedan.""More important, the Grand Prix offers higher horsepower and torque that is locomotive low. Push the gas pedal more than one-quarter of the way down from a stoplight, and the BFGoodrich Comp T/As will shriek loud enough to set off car alarms. Turn off the traction control and floor it, and the tires will sing the first 12 bars of La Traviata before they hook up.
Puffed up by the 9.5-psi sirocco from the twin-rotor Eaton supercharger, the big pushrod V-6 slings the Grand Prix to 60 mph in 6.6 seconds, faster by a half-second or more than all the prestige machines mentioned earlier. The quarter-mile clicks by in a virile 15 flat at 93 mph, but after that, progress slows as the lungs of a two-valve engine start to burn for lack of air."
I guess all of these huge LS400 fans are just confused then.
I AM a huge LS400 fan. I've owned the original LS400, and I'll give it all the credit where its due for its design, refinement, and the shock it created in the industry. Old time posters will probably remember me arguing to no end with clueless snobs that claimed LS400 was a copy of W140, while in fact W140 came 2 years after the LS400 and heavily borrowed styling cues from the LS. The LS made the W126 look antiquated.
I also have a pretty intimate knowledge of the 1UZ and the 3UZ as I've done a good amount of work on both of these engine, and while I'll give credit where its due I'll point out the flaws just as well, same as with any other manufacturer. I can find you a ton of posts in the 1LS forum regarding many common issues, and they were all a major pain to fix due to the less than optimal design.
I have said about a million times that I'm not talking about the 00s, although here is a quote from a C&D article from a 2004 Pontiac road test..
"The supercharged 3.8-liter Series III helps the Grand Prix become a true hot-rod sedan.""More important, the Grand Prix offers higher horsepower and torque that is locomotive low. Push the gas pedal more than one-quarter of the way down from a stoplight, and the BFGoodrich Comp T/As will shriek loud enough to set off car alarms. Turn off the traction control and floor it, and the tires will sing the first 12 bars of La Traviata before they hook up.
Puffed up by the 9.5-psi sirocco from the twin-rotor Eaton supercharger, the big pushrod V-6 slings the Grand Prix to 60 mph in 6.6 seconds, faster by a half-second or more than all the prestige machines mentioned earlier. The quarter-mile clicks by in a virile 15 flat at 93 mph, but after that, progress slows as the lungs of a two-valve engine start to burn for lack of air."
Sounds plenty competitive to me, even in the 2000s, though the 2000s aren't what I'm talking about as I've repeatedly said.
If anything, the FI version of the 3800 only highlights its age and mediocrity. There was just no room for improvement in that old design, and 240hp/280tq out of FI 3.8 liter is very pathetic. Any FI Japanese 6 cylinder of the 90ies would wipe the floor with the 3800, and in 2000s Japanese engines made more power and torque with NA 6 cylinders with smaller displacement.
I also have a pretty intimate knowledge of the 1UZ and the 3UZ as I've done a good amount of work on both of these engine, ....
Then how can you say they share nothing? Internally they are essentially the same, block, rods, crank, pistons it's the same basic engine. Which should be obvious since they the same engine family. The main and rod bearings between 1990 and 1997 are identical, 3UZ bearings could easily be mistaken for the 1UZ. Here is a 1UZ and 3UZ crank tell me which is which.
Then how can you say they share nothing? Internally they are essentially the same, block, rods, crank, pistons it's the same basic engine. Which should be obvious since they the same engine family. The main and rod bearings between 1990 and 1997 are identical, 3UZ bearings could easily be mistaken for the 1UZ. Here is a 1UZ and 3UZ crank tell me which is which.
Seriously? You can post just about any V8 crankshaft, they all look basically the same. Lextreme site back in the days had a ton of info comparing the two. Sure, the engine were designed by the same engineers so they had similarities, and maybe even shared certain bearings and bolts, but they were radically different. DIfferent block, different pistons, different connecting rods, radically different heads, radically different cams with VVTI, radically different intake manifold, electronic throttle body, electronic ignition, different ECU and all new sensors, different cooling system, completely different EGR system.
Seriously? You can post just about any V8 crankshaft, they all look basically the same. Lextreme site back in the days had a ton of info comparing the two. Sure, the engine were designed by the same engineers so they had similarities, and maybe even shared certain bearings and bolts, but they were radically different. DIfferent block, different pistons, different connecting rods, radically different heads, radically different cams with VVTI, radically different intake manifold, electronic throttle body, electronic ignition, different ECU and all new sensors, different cooling system, completely different EGR system.
Yea, seriously. You said they didn't share a single bolt. Give it up already.
If anything, the FI version of the 3800 only highlights its age and mediocrity. There was just no room for improvement in that old design, and 240hp/280tq out of FI 3.8 liter is very pathetic. Any FI Japanese 6 cylinder of the 90ies would wipe the floor with the 3800, and in 2000s Japanese engines made more power and torque with NA 6 cylinders with smaller displacement.
Again, apples to oranges. Any FI 6 cylinder in the 90s from Japan was only available in actual sports car, not a bread and butter sedan.
Car and Driver seems to agree with me about this motor, and despite what you say it is a very well respected engine that does have a legacy.
What N/A Japanese V6 made 280ft/lb of torque? Most Japanese motors that made good horsepower were 3.5s...vs a 3.8.....A whopping 3/10s of a liter smaller. That is not a significant difference as you're pretending it to be.
Did you not read the C&D article I posted? They seemed to think the 3.8 was just fine in 2004....and again I'm not even talking about that decade in regards to my original post.
Again, apples to oranges. Any FI 6 cylinder in the 90s from Japan was only available in actual sports car, not a bread and butter sedan.
Car and Driver seems to agree with me about this motor, and despite what you say it is a very well respected engine that does have a legacy.
What N/A Japanese V6 made 280ft/lb of torque? Most Japanese motors that made good horsepower were 3.5s...vs a 3.8.....A whopping 3/10s of a liter smaller. That is not a significant difference as you're pretending it to be.
Did you not read the C&D article I posted? They seemed to think the 3.8 was just fine in 2004....and again I'm not even talking about that decade in regards to my original post.
Toyota 3.5 makes 280lb, Honda 3.5 and Nissan 3.5/3.7 make 270 - basically matching the supercharged 3800 torque with vastly more horse power. The 3800 was good in the 80ies, in the 90ies it was clearly showing its age and it was just hopeless in 2000s. This is what happens when a company stops innovating and stales progress, which is exactly what is happening to Toyota/Lexus in the last decade or so.
Toyota 3.5 makes 280lb, Honda 3.5 and Nissan 3.5/3.7 make 270 - basically matching the supercharged 3800 torque with vastly more horse power. The 3800 was good in the 80ies, in the 90ies it was clearly showing its age and it was just hopeless in 2000s. This is what happens when a company stops innovating and stales progress, which is exactly what is happening to Toyota/Lexus in the last decade or so.
Yes, now.
I have said repeatedly I'm not talking about now.
However, what N/A Jap V6 made 280lb/ft in 2004 like the 3800 in that Grand Prix did?
You do know that the S/C 3800 was very underrated as well, don't you?
However, what N/A Jap V6 made 280lb/ft in 2004 like the 3800 in that Grand Prix did?
You do know that the S/C 3800 was very underrated as well, don't you?
G35 coupe made 270tq in 2003, IS350 made 277 in 2005, Acura TL made 260 in 2004. They all made more horse power than the S/C 3800 as well, and were faster cars.
Basically the 3800 was relevant in the 80ies, dated in the 90ies when everyone switched to OHC, hopeless in 2000s, perfect candidate for the cash for clunkers in 2010, and if you see anyone driving it in 2020 most likely they have a mullet.
G35 coupe made 270tq in 2003, IS350 made 277 in 2005, Acura TL made 260 in 2004. They all made more horse power than the S/C 3800 as well, and were faster cars.
Basically the 3800 was relevant in the 80ies, dated in the 90ies when everyone switched to OHC, hopeless in 2000s, perfect candidate for the cash for clunkers in 2010, and if you see anyone driving it in 2020 most likely they have a mullet.
The original G35 made 260/260 in 2002 while the S/C 3800 had made the 240/280 since like 1996.
We have an IS350 with that 3.5 motor and it's a rocket but doesn't have the bottom end of a S/C 3800 at all, sorry. But yes once it revs out, get out of the way.
And the 2004 Acura TL, I owned a 2006 one that was a 6spd. It was a sweet engine too but had zero torque, and the rating wasn't 260, it was 238 lb/ft.
When I test drove my LS and bought it it took me a minute to get used to, the torque compared to that Acura.
I will agree with you on one thing: The 3UZ is basically a perfect engine. You can't not notice how heavenly and refined it is when it does its business. It's so undertaxed it's ridiculous. But it springs to life if you prod it and sounds like ripping silk.
The original G35 made 260/260 in 2002 while the S/C 3800 had made the 240/280 since like 1996. 270 in the coupe, 274 in some versions of the z350
We have an IS350 with that 3.5 motor and it's a rocket but doesn't have the bottom end of a S/C 3800 at all, sorry. But yes once it revs out, get out of the way.
And the 2004 Acura TL, I owned a 2006 one that was a 6spd. It was a sweet engine too but had zero torque, and the rating wasn't 260, it was 238 lb/ft. 260 in the type S
When I test drove my LS and bought it it took me a minute to get used to, the torque compared to that Acura.
Again, I am not saying the 3800 was a bad engine, just long in the tooth and too antiquated by the end of its cycle. GM used to build great engines, and most of Toyota's early engines were in fact based on old GM. The difference is, Toyota used to continue innovating, until now. Their 2GR was a class leading motor when it debuted, but much like the 3800 it is hopelessly outdated and behind competition.
Originally Posted by AJT123
I will agree with you on one thing: The 3UZ is basically a perfect engine. You can't not notice how heavenly and refined it is when it does its business. It's so undertaxed it's ridiculous. But it springs to life if you prod it and sounds like ripping silk.
Its not just refined, its also brilliantly engineered to perfection, very easy to work on with every component making perfect sense.
