Tesla business discussion
Lexus Fanatic
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From: Alberta
What technology do they have an advantage on? Any of the major car manufacturers Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW and GM or Ford can make an electric car. They coils make one that could rival the performance of a Tesla. The reason why they don’t is that none of them can make a profit doing it. Until now as they start to allocate their resources into. EVs.
It is a massive fallacy to say any auto maker can jump in and best Tesla they simply don't want to. About the best example of wishful thinking you'll ever find.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: CA
Originally Posted by Lexus2000
The technology doesn't fall from the sky you still have to make version 1.0, then subsequent and improved versions. By the time Toyota has a BEV Tesla will be many revisions ahead, and will have been making their own battery packs for years.
It is a massive fallacy to say any auto maker can jump in and best Tesla they simply don't want to. About the best example of wishful thinking you'll ever find.
It is a massive fallacy to say any auto maker can jump in and best Tesla they simply don't want to. About the best example of wishful thinking you'll ever find.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,475
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
With GM charging upper-30s-to-low 40s for the average (subcompact) Chevrolet Bolt EV, it's difficult to argue that they are not making at least some money on it....that's a lot of cash for a very small vehicle. But GM is not Tesla, and GM doesn't use the kind of electronic components that Tesla does. A Bolt (or the now-discontinued Ford Focus Electric) is not going to run 300-400 miles (depending on conditions) on a single charge that a Tesla will. Tesla prices their most inexpensive Model 3 even lower than GM's Bolt, yet uses far more sophisticated electric components that are almost certainly costing the company more to produce than GM does with the Bolt. That is (obviously) not a formula for making money....nor is the fact, as has been discussed numerous times in the Tesla threads, that Tesla persists in the money-losing style of company-owned retail-outlets.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,475
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Musk, at one time, was a remarkable engineer and entrepreneur, and one has to give him credit for what he accomplished in the past. In fact, the company itself was probably appropriately named. Nichola Tesla, himself, worked in the shadow of the great engineer/inventor Thomas Edison, yet Tesla never got the credit he deserved until recently. The AC (alternating-current) electrical system, for example, which includes most household and business electrical functions, was actually perfected by Tesla......Edison, in contrast, was sold on the contrasting DC (direct-current) system.
But that was then...and this is now. The Musk of today is clearly not the Musk that brilliantly founded and advanced the Tesla company. His time, IMO, has come and gone. He has made millions (perhaps billions) in his lifetime.....perhaps it's time to enjoy some of that now in retirement. I could go into the reasons why, but it would just be wasted space......we have already covered most of that in previous posts and threads.
Last edited by mmarshall; Jul 28, 2019 at 04:45 PM.
So Tesla as a whole, is not making profit. Not sure what else there is to say. You are the only one I feel that is arguing that they are. Once the other manufacturers come on board, it will become more difficult for Telsa to make money. That is just an opinion, it was a pleasure discussing it with you..
besides the cars themselves, tesla has had to build a charging infrastructure, although i maintain they should have charged (no pun intended) users of that from the get go and maybe partnered with power companies - maybe they did anyway, i don’t know, a communications infrastructure, and they’ve chosen to go after very ambitious autonomous driving goals which Musk claims will turn Teslas you buy today into money making ride-share vehicles in the future (I’m skeptical on that, but anyway)...
regardless of whether tesla is profitable as a whole, your view that other car makers will just waltz in and take it away from tesla, are naive at best, or maybe just argumentative. Other car makers already producing EVs or soon to be launched ones, will no doubt try to leverage their strengths in manufacturing, quality control, regulatory expertise, dealers (yes, dealers), and more, but it’s already clear from vehicles like e-Tron, EQC and BMW’s pathetic i3/i8 that they’re no threat to Tesla technically. Now will audi/mercedes sell some e-Trons and EQC’s? Sure. Bmw sold some i3/i8’s somehow. I don’t personally know if bmw lost a load of money on those tiny sales volumes and all that r&d. The e-Tron and EQC take a more conventional route, but facts such as no front storage and lower range will still limit their appeal i think. Plus, other car makers will still wrestle with trying to make money on electric vehicles. They usually have to buy their batteries from someone else, unlike tesla. And with demand increasing for batteries, prices for non-tesla batteries may well rise (they may not, if supply can keep up or grow).
By my math, “overall” tesla is probably losing about $5K on each Tesla sold. that’s not a huge gap. As non-tesla charging infrastructure grows (places at which you can still charge a Tesla), and charging gets quicker, the ‘range anxiety’ argument will lessen. Plus with all the screaming about ‘climate change’ more people will want to stop driving a gas burning car, especially in places where pressure to do so is high and getting higher, like china, and europe.
If any competitor really puts a hurt on tesla, i believe it will be one of the FIVE HUNDRED chinese EV startups. Now one or more of those could get bought by a well know car maker. The VW announcements and now ford alliance to use the vw platform is interesting, but a long way from bearing any fruit yet.
Anyway, to your point, i would say it’s debatable as to whether “Once the other manufacturers come on board, it will become more difficult for Telsa to make money.” It could go the other way and validate tesla and make them even more popular.
It’s actually very easy to argue. The bolt is sold in tiny numbers and no doubt cost billions in R&D. You have to sell a ton of 30-40k bolts to even break even.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,474
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From: ON/NY
your argument is much too simplistic to the point of absurdity. Most companies creating a new industry do not make a profit for a long time. Musk always said it would take a long time starting with the expensive and tiny volume roadster, to the S/X in larger numbers, finally to the 3 in large numbers. Yes tesla’s been around a long time, but attacking a century old industry is extremely hard, besides the technical and manufacturing obstacles. These companies mentioned are already investing in ride sharing and self driving tech which will all be built into the EV development.
besides the cars themselves, tesla has had to build a charging infrastructure, although i maintain they should have charged (no pun intended) users of that from the get go and maybe partnered with power companies - maybe they did anyway, i don’t know, a communications infrastructure, and they’ve chosen to go after very ambitious autonomous driving goals which Musk claims will turn Teslas you buy today into money making ride-share vehicles in the future (I’m skeptical on that, but anyway)......we just don’t agree.
regardless of whether tesla is profitable as a whole, your view that other car makers will just waltz in and take it away from tesla, are naive at best, or maybe just argumentative. Other car makers already producing EVs or soon to be launched ones, will no doubt try to leverage their strengths in manufacturing, quality control, regulatory expertise, dealers (yes, dealers), and more, but it’s already clear from vehicles like e-Tron, EQC and BMW’s pathetic i3/i8 that they’re no threat to Tesla technically. Now will audi/mercedes sell some e-Trons and EQC’s? Sure. Bmw sold some i3/i8’s somehow. I don’t personally know if bmw lost a load of money on those tiny sales volumes and all that r&d. The e-Tron and EQC take a more conventional route, but facts such as no front storage and lower range will still limit their appeal i think. Plus, other car makers will still wrestle with trying to make money on electric vehicles. They usually have to buy their batteries from someone else, unlike tesla. And with demand increasing for batteries, prices for non-tesla batteries may well rise (they may not, if supply can keep up or grow).
By my math, “overall” tesla is probably losing about $5K on each Tesla sold. that’s not a huge gap. As non-tesla charging infrastructure grows (places at which you can still charge a Tesla), and charging gets quicker, the ‘range anxiety’ argument will lessen. Plus with all the screaming about ‘climate change’ more people will want to stop driving a gas burning car, especially in places where pressure to do so is high and getting higher, like china, and europe.
If any competitor really puts a hurt on tesla, i believe it will be one of the FIVE HUNDRED chinese EV startups. Now one or more of those could get bought by a well know car maker. The VW announcements and now ford alliance to use the vw platform is interesting, but a long way from bearing any fruit yet.
Anyway, to your point, i would say it’s debatable as to whether “Once the other manufacturers come on board, it will become more difficult for Telsa to make money.” It could go the other way and validate tesla and make them even more popular.
that’s hard to say too, as toyota and others will have innovations of their own. Tesla is the only company that can have good ideas.
It’s actually very easy to argue. The bolt is sold in tiny numbers and no doubt cost billions in R&D. You have to sell a ton of 30-40k bolts to even break even.
besides the cars themselves, tesla has had to build a charging infrastructure, although i maintain they should have charged (no pun intended) users of that from the get go and maybe partnered with power companies - maybe they did anyway, i don’t know, a communications infrastructure, and they’ve chosen to go after very ambitious autonomous driving goals which Musk claims will turn Teslas you buy today into money making ride-share vehicles in the future (I’m skeptical on that, but anyway)......we just don’t agree.
regardless of whether tesla is profitable as a whole, your view that other car makers will just waltz in and take it away from tesla, are naive at best, or maybe just argumentative. Other car makers already producing EVs or soon to be launched ones, will no doubt try to leverage their strengths in manufacturing, quality control, regulatory expertise, dealers (yes, dealers), and more, but it’s already clear from vehicles like e-Tron, EQC and BMW’s pathetic i3/i8 that they’re no threat to Tesla technically. Now will audi/mercedes sell some e-Trons and EQC’s? Sure. Bmw sold some i3/i8’s somehow. I don’t personally know if bmw lost a load of money on those tiny sales volumes and all that r&d. The e-Tron and EQC take a more conventional route, but facts such as no front storage and lower range will still limit their appeal i think. Plus, other car makers will still wrestle with trying to make money on electric vehicles. They usually have to buy their batteries from someone else, unlike tesla. And with demand increasing for batteries, prices for non-tesla batteries may well rise (they may not, if supply can keep up or grow).
By my math, “overall” tesla is probably losing about $5K on each Tesla sold. that’s not a huge gap. As non-tesla charging infrastructure grows (places at which you can still charge a Tesla), and charging gets quicker, the ‘range anxiety’ argument will lessen. Plus with all the screaming about ‘climate change’ more people will want to stop driving a gas burning car, especially in places where pressure to do so is high and getting higher, like china, and europe.
If any competitor really puts a hurt on tesla, i believe it will be one of the FIVE HUNDRED chinese EV startups. Now one or more of those could get bought by a well know car maker. The VW announcements and now ford alliance to use the vw platform is interesting, but a long way from bearing any fruit yet.
Anyway, to your point, i would say it’s debatable as to whether “Once the other manufacturers come on board, it will become more difficult for Telsa to make money.” It could go the other way and validate tesla and make them even more popular.
that’s hard to say too, as toyota and others will have innovations of their own. Tesla is the only company that can have good ideas.
It’s actually very easy to argue. The bolt is sold in tiny numbers and no doubt cost billions in R&D. You have to sell a ton of 30-40k bolts to even break even.
For example, I can’t imagine how Tesla can make a bread and butter small cross over and make money doing it when let’s say Hyundai develops a Santa Fe with gas, hybrid, hydrogen and the next thing EV baked all into one platform, design, assembly etc. Or Toyota with RAV4, or Honda with the CRV, or Chevrolet with the Equinox. This is how these companies have an advantage. Do you not see my point of view?
Last edited by Toys4RJill; Jul 28, 2019 at 08:53 PM.
Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2016
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From: FL
I just wanna add my $0.02 why I do not like Tesla. In an interview, Musk said Edison was the better inventor over Tesla. Okay... why not name you company after him then? Also he is wrong, Tesla was the better inventor. He did not make more money then Edison so I can see why Musk said that. Who was it who built an electric car, which was a Pierce Arrow, way before Anyone or Musk did....& I know the first cars were EV btw, not like how Nikola built them... Anyway our history regarding Nikola is completely messed up. Donald Trump's Uncle was working with the FBI who raided the New Yorker Hotel room after his death? Where are all his blueprints for his inventions?
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,475
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
I put my money on the long established large car companies to win out at the end of the day. Once the vast resources of GM, Hyundai (already in the EV game), MB, Toyota and perhaps Honda start shifting to electric car development and manufacturing, it will put enormous pressure on Tesla. You are already seeing MB and Jaguar announce that their electric vehicles are built on the same line as their gas and hybrid models. I am sure Hyundai does this with their EVs. Toyota certainly will as well. Add in their superior resources for marketing, brand loyalty and distribution networks, i see the future of EVs as something the established players will dominate.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
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From: ON/NY
..no EV company, large or small, outside of California (where a decent charging-infrastructure already exists), is really going to benefit in the long run until we, as a nation (and you in Canada as well, if necessary), get cracking on an adequate nationwide charging system. Not everyone has the ability to recharge at home.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
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From: Alberta
I just wanna add my $0.02 why I do not like Tesla. In an interview, Musk said Edison was the better inventor over Tesla. Okay... why not name you company after him then? Also he is wrong, Tesla was the better inventor. He did not make more money then Edison so I can see why Musk said that. Who was it who built an electric car, which was a Pierce Arrow, way before Anyone or Musk did....& I know the first cars were EV btw, not like how Nikola built them... Anyway our history regarding Nikola is completely messed up. Donald Trump's Uncle was working with the FBI who raided the New Yorker Hotel room after his death? Where are all his blueprints for his inventions?
There is no such thing as incompatible electricity it can be converted.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
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From: ON/NY
Charging systems I am referring to. Can a Tesla owner go to a Bolt owners house and plug in to their charger?
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
But the industry, in the past, came up with standard-size/design gas filler-nozzles, filler-pipes, and other standardized hardware for refueling with gasoline and diesel-fuel. They will eventually do the same for electric charge-outlets, if enough demand is there.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
The first BEV electric vehicles actually pre-dated the first ICEs, and, in some cases, go back well before the 20th century, though it is controversial and difficult to answer as to which specific vehicle and/or company actually was first. The industry basically converted to ICEs and petroleum fuels for more or less the same reasons a lot of people still don't want an electric vehicle today....limited range, and having to constantly recharge it.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: CA
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Charging systems I am referring to. Can a Tesla owner go to a Bolt owners house and plug in to their charger?