That wouldn't prove that the GS460's engine is underrated. You need to look at the power to weight ratio. Yes, the LS460 has more power, but it also weighs about 300lbs more. Still, the very slight difference could be due to transmission mapping. After all, lexus did the same with the LS430 (5spd) and the GS430. Same transmission, but the shifting was a bit more aggressive in the GS430. Even if the GS460 was underrated, the difference still wouldn't be as large, otherwise it would be leaps and bounds quicker than the LS460.

 

Well then if the ads were received well, we'll see how that translates into sales.

To me it seems that the Genesis puts many cars to shame value-wise *on paper*. I must also point out that *on paper* the Azera puts many cars to shame, so to speak. There are of course intangibles like piece of mind and the little details that you only start to notice when you own the car. Some of the competitors have an advantage over Hyundai with those intangibles.

I'm sorry, but it's absolutely silly and ignorant to say that there is nothing that special about the LS/S-Class/7/A8 class of cars. Each car has it's own special qualities, innovations, and world firsts.

I would highly encourage you to do some research on these cars, and go sit in and drive some of them before making such silly statements about them.

Those cars are in an entirely different league than the Genesis.

For a lot of people the lack of a badge on the front end combined the anonymous styling is going to cause a lot of confusion and will only hurt Hyundai's brand rep and identity. If people won't even know what brand the Genesis is when they see it driving on the road, that's not going to help Hyundai as a brand.

Also, AFAIK, Hyundai decided to go with no badging on their own. They initially wanted to gauge consumer reaction at auto shows with two different grills, but that idea seemed to have gotten thrown out the window. Consumer response and reaction had very little to do with Hyundai's decision of de-badging the car. This to me is another example of the arrogance that certain Korean companies display.

 

From a marketing point of view you may be right. I'm speaking from a car guy point of view. Badges IMHO are the worst part of any car. IMHO, if people don't know what type of car it is, then they really don't care anyway. This is why good and great cars are often marketing flops, while crappy cars are sales leaders. People put too much into the badge and not the car itself. Having to badges would just save me the time of removing them myself.

 

That and the Cadillac CTS.

I highly disagree. You even contradicted yourself somewhat. If, as you say, the innovations trickle down, then the entry-level luxury cars would all have trickled-down innovations .

In the luxury market, that is not what most car companies do, and it's silly to think that is the case. BMW with the 3 Series offers an intangible driving experience, which by itself is a very special and innovative part of the car. Then there certain little touches only seen on German cars that make them unique. Similar touches can be found on other German cars. With the CTS, it has very unique exterior styling. You definitely will NOT mistake the CTS for anything other than a Cadillac. The Genesis can, and will be mistaken for any number of cars ranging from the G35, the LS, Infiniti M, and 5 Series just to name a few. The CTS also has an HDD 'infotainment' system. The G35 also has a similar system. The G35 features a fairly unique exterior and has a unique engine sound. The G35 also is known to have ignited a horsepower war in this segment.

I can go on and on, but it's plainly obvious that almost every car in the entry-level luxury segment has something unique or innovative to offer.

The Genesis seems to be completely formulaic IMHO. I thought that Hyundai might differentiate itself with increased safety compared to the competition, but that is not the case. The competition has caught up, and in some ways exceeded the safety equipment offered. The Genesis does not go above and beyond in any way in terms of safety, or features compared to the competition.

In fact, I see the biggest competition for the Genesis possibly being Hyundai itself. The Azera is going to get a redesign in the next 2-3 years, and just like the Genesis and every other Hyundai out there, the Azera's main selling point is value. I predict the redesigned Azera will eat into Genesis sales.

FYI, a huge chunk of those Sonata sales are fleet sales. It's well documented that the Sonata is major fleet car and that heavy sales incentives are used to push Sonata sales. Take fleet sales out of the equation, and Sonata retail sales are only a tiny fraction of the market segment.

The Azera is also known to have some fairly significant fleet sales.

If history is an indication, a fair percentage of Genesis sales will be fleet, sizable incentives will be used, and overall sales will only be a small fraction of the market.

Disagreed. Was the GS430 "leaps and bounds" quicker than an LS430? It wasn't. There was only a few tenths difference in 0-60. If the GS460 is a few tenths quicker than the LS460, than that will be evidence enough the GS460 engine is underrated on paper.

From a car guy POV, I sometimes don't like badges myself .

I am trying to be objective though and looking at this from a big picture/business/marketing POV.

If Hyundai wants to improve it's brand image and reputation, then the market dictates that the Genesis DOES need a badge.

 

Their marketing is working, their superbowl ads worked. This is a Lexus forum and and 23 pages later you're still talking about it. If I were to judge from your post history, if the Gensis was identical with the exception of having a Toyota or Lexus badge, you'd be ALL over it.

 

 

You cannot attribute being faster with more power. If Lexus repeats history, then the LS460 has a different mapping than the GS460. This was the case with the LS400 vs GS400 and LS430 vs GS430. The only way we're going to see if the GS460 is really underrated is if one of the GS460 guys decides to dyno his/her car. Until then, we'll just have to believe lexus' rating.

 

I prefer it without a front badge, any car for that matter. If one catches my eye I'm turning around and following it anyway, and see the name on the back, and that's only if I miss it in rearview as it is going by. The Genesis looks better without a badge messing up that grille.

 

Agreed the dyno will be the definitive piece of evidence, but like I said, the GS430 was NOT "leaps and bounds" quicker vs LS430, nor was the GS400 "leaps and bounds" quicker than the LS400.

 

My GS430 is "leaps and bounds" x 10 faster than my LS400.

 

cant wait until they start selling the car to see how it goes... when do the sales start? (sorry if posted before). Competition can only be good.

 

You can roll your eyes all you want, it's the truth. You critisize the HP/torque figures when they are nearly identical to the GS460 yet somehow GS460 HP is better? Yeah, ok.

 

Your GS430 *should* be leaps and bounds faster than an LS400. The GS430 has a more powerful engine and it's lighter than an LS400. I doubt your GS430 is leaps and bounds faster than an LS430 though.

So somehow, according to you HP/torque figures *on paper* are everything in this class?

Also, why does this comparison to the GS continue? The Genesis does not, and WILL NOT compete with the GS. Sorry, but the cars are in two different classes. That's just like saying the Azera competes with the ES350, which is not true.

Why don't we compare the Pontiac G8's V8 with the Hyundai's V8? The Pontiac 6.0L makes more HP and MUCH more torque than the Hyundai V8.

 

Not all innovations trickle down due to cost for one thing, as well as keeping target markets segmented. Plus I said 'usually' and not 'always'. Yes, sometimes innovations are implemented on lower end models first, and sometimes innovations that may be appealing to target buyers in one segment won't be appealing to another. Anyway, I seem to be wasting time typing further on this.

I would appreciate you not calling me 'silly'. Let me present EXAMPLES for you. I believe the LS was the first Lexus model to get nav, and then it TRICKLED DOWN to the other models, and now of course it's available on a Corolla. Still silly?! I believe Mercedes safety innovations like anti-lock brakes and airbags first appeared on their S class and then TRICKLED DOWN to the other models. For Lexus, I believe ventilated seats first appeared on the LS. Now you can get them on the ES.

But of course I'm just being silly and am imagining all this trickling down.

The people who mistake the Genesis for something else are probably the same ones that will see the ES and LS, maybe even a Camry as the same, because they're not into it. Will YOU mistake a Genesis for anything else? I won't.

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean my point is silly.

This is not an introduction equivalent to the original LS if that's what you're expecting. It's a relatively small step upmarket from the Azera. Toyota's early steps up, like Cressida, or Celica, etc., were hardly giant leaps. The Supra was a bombshell but those days of Toyota appear to be gone - they now play it very safely, focused more on vehicles for the masses than niches.

By the time it's out, I doubt anyone will remember you said this.

Write off Hyundai all you like. Yes, they're not Toyota.

I'm sure that makes sense to you.