Lexus Benchmarking German Car Body Rigidity
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
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From: Ca
You say this all the time but it’s actually not true. The LS did outsell the S Class some years but not consistently at all. In fact since 2006 the only years the LS outsold the S Class was 2007 and 2008. Prior to 2006 you saw the LS outselling it consistently but that was 20 years ago and there was a huge price difference then
However, 4LS did fall behind S Class from 2010 onwards, especially by 2013 when the next generation W221 was on sale.
Perhaps Lexus as the biggest luxury importer in USA in those times made Lexus cocky???
The 4LS's 3.5 year midlife update wasn't enough?
Then 2013 has a major refresh instead of a new model.
They turned what is normally a 7-year model cycle into an 11-year model cycle - only to come out with a sporty niche product that didn't sell in substantial volume unlike S Class and 7 Series.
Nothing would have saved the LS because like I said before, it was already a dead man walking when it was the 460. But the issue with the 500 wasn't so much the direction as it was the fact that Lexus gave up halfway and released an incomplete, unfinished product before calling it a day. They wanted to chase the Panamera instead of the S-Class but didn't have the commitment to go either direction.
They aren't going to pull the G90 unless there's a direct flagship replacement for it in the Genesis lineup. It'll stick around for the rest of this generation in the US at least because they've already spent the money to certify and crash test it. Kia kept the K900 around even when its sales were only three digits and the only reason they pulled it from the US was because they were afraid it would step on the G90's flagship status.
They aren't going to pull the G90 unless there's a direct flagship replacement for it in the Genesis lineup. It'll stick around for the rest of this generation in the US at least because they've already spent the money to certify and crash test it. Kia kept the K900 around even when its sales were only three digits and the only reason they pulled it from the US was because they were afraid it would step on the G90's flagship status.
Look at what I had to do to my 4GS under Akio's "No more boring cars" adage.
This is really what killed Lexus sedans relative to Benz and Beamer sedans.
Change from 2015 to 2016-20 coils and shock absorbers which were softer.
The taller unsprung axial height coils below are actually softer, because they have the same ride height.
OEM 2015 235/40/ R19:
Downsize once to 235/45 R18:
Downsize the second time into 235/50 R17:
Now, it has a decent ride.
However, most consumers including Mike Marshall wouldn't do this - they would just purchase an E Class or 5 Series.
So Millennials and Gen Z want hi riding SUV's and trucks, but do they want sporty designs too? Sales seem to say no?
Last edited by peteharvey; Sep 2, 2024 at 05:03 PM.
Thread Starter
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2020
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From: N/A
Had Akio targeted the Panamera more, the sales volume would be even lower again.
Look at what I had to do to my 4GS under Akio's "No more boring cars" adage.
This is really what killed Lexus sedans relative to Benz and Beamer sedans.
Change from 2015 to 2016-20 coils and shock absorbers which were softer.
The taller unsprung axial height coils below are actually softer, because they have the same ride height.
Look at what I had to do to my 4GS under Akio's "No more boring cars" adage.
This is really what killed Lexus sedans relative to Benz and Beamer sedans.
Change from 2015 to 2016-20 coils and shock absorbers which were softer.
The taller unsprung axial height coils below are actually softer, because they have the same ride height.
I don't think there was anything wrong with the vision for the LS500 - there was no longer a reason for Lexus to make a luxobarge for old people after the failure of the LS460. So pursuing the Panamera/Gran Coupe philosophy would have been a good way to not only revitalize and distinguish the LS from the competition but also revive Lexus as a brand for younger people with money. But by not carrying through their vision to completion, the LS doesn't have any cohesive appeal and just becomes a compromised product that caters to the very few brand loyalists who used to own a GS before it was cancelled that refuse to consider other brands.
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,687
Likes: 543
From: Ca
By all accounts the Panamera had a soft ride comparable to the S-Class with the air suspension option. Also didn't have runflats like the LS500.
I don't think there was anything wrong with the vision for the LS500 - there was no longer a reason for Lexus to make a luxobarge for old people after the failure of the LS460. So pursuing the Panamera/Gran Coupe philosophy would have been a good way to not only revitalize and distinguish the LS from the competition but also revive Lexus as a brand for younger people with money. But by not carrying through their vision to completion, the LS doesn't have any cohesive appeal and just becomes a compromised product that caters to the very few brand loyalists who used to own a GS before it was cancelled that refuse to consider other brands.
I don't think there was anything wrong with the vision for the LS500 - there was no longer a reason for Lexus to make a luxobarge for old people after the failure of the LS460. So pursuing the Panamera/Gran Coupe philosophy would have been a good way to not only revitalize and distinguish the LS from the competition but also revive Lexus as a brand for younger people with money. But by not carrying through their vision to completion, the LS doesn't have any cohesive appeal and just becomes a compromised product that caters to the very few brand loyalists who used to own a GS before it was cancelled that refuse to consider other brands.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,285
Likes: 309
From: ON/NY
I don't think Genesis will make it in the luxury market unless it's a "bargain luxury" offering.
They're going up against major Icons in the segment like BMW and Mercedes, I don't think it will end well for them.
I see them dialing it back to a premium offering eventually but not luxury.
They're going up against major Icons in the segment like BMW and Mercedes, I don't think it will end well for them.
I see them dialing it back to a premium offering eventually but not luxury.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; Sep 2, 2024 at 06:00 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,223
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
makes no sense to compare. bmw and mercedes are full line ups of cars. lexus is a tiny division of toyota.
also, all this talk of 'the germans' puts me off... why isn't lexus then just called the japanese?
also, almost ALL bmw suvs (savs in their stupid marketing speed), and suvs are the majority of what they sell now, are made in SOUTH CAROLINA not germany.
also, all this talk of 'the germans' puts me off... why isn't lexus then just called the japanese?
also, almost ALL bmw suvs (savs in their stupid marketing speed), and suvs are the majority of what they sell now, are made in SOUTH CAROLINA not germany.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,073
Likes: 3,869
From: Maryland
Panamera is nowhere near as soft as an S Class.
The bottom line is the LS has always been a lower cost alternative to the “real” flagship cars. It always has been. Now that the segment has shrunk to where it is, there just isn’t a broad enough market for “alternatives” to carve out market share. Buyers of these cars are people like me for whom a luxury sedan will always be preferable to an SUV, and we buy the best stuff because we are enthusiasts of that specific segment of cars. So, Lexus could have made an incredible LS that ticks all the boxes (like the G90, frankly) and it would still sell in really small numbers.
Move up people who aspire to own a big flagship sedan can be caught by Lexus and Genesis but those buyers don’t really exist anymore. What’s left are those of us who already drive them and want them and we buy the real deal.
The bottom line is the LS has always been a lower cost alternative to the “real” flagship cars. It always has been. Now that the segment has shrunk to where it is, there just isn’t a broad enough market for “alternatives” to carve out market share. Buyers of these cars are people like me for whom a luxury sedan will always be preferable to an SUV, and we buy the best stuff because we are enthusiasts of that specific segment of cars. So, Lexus could have made an incredible LS that ticks all the boxes (like the G90, frankly) and it would still sell in really small numbers.
Move up people who aspire to own a big flagship sedan can be caught by Lexus and Genesis but those buyers don’t really exist anymore. What’s left are those of us who already drive them and want them and we buy the real deal.
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,687
Likes: 543
From: Ca
Panamera is nowhere near as soft as an S Class.
The bottom line is the LS has always been a lower cost alternative to the “real” flagship cars. It always has been. Now that the segment has shrunk to where it is, there just isn’t a broad enough market for “alternatives” to carve out market share. Buyers of these cars are people like me for whom a luxury sedan will always be preferable to an SUV, and we buy the best stuff because we are enthusiasts of that specific segment of cars. So, Lexus could have made an incredible LS that ticks all the boxes (like the G90, frankly) and it would still sell in really small numbers.
Move up people who aspire to own a big flagship sedan can be caught by Lexus and Genesis but those buyers don’t really exist anymore. What’s left are those of us who already drive them and want them and we buy the real deal.
The bottom line is the LS has always been a lower cost alternative to the “real” flagship cars. It always has been. Now that the segment has shrunk to where it is, there just isn’t a broad enough market for “alternatives” to carve out market share. Buyers of these cars are people like me for whom a luxury sedan will always be preferable to an SUV, and we buy the best stuff because we are enthusiasts of that specific segment of cars. So, Lexus could have made an incredible LS that ticks all the boxes (like the G90, frankly) and it would still sell in really small numbers.
Move up people who aspire to own a big flagship sedan can be caught by Lexus and Genesis but those buyers don’t really exist anymore. What’s left are those of us who already drive them and want them and we buy the real deal.
Just another conventional sedan [none of this sporty nonsense], and it could sell in decent figures - despite declining sedan sales.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,285
Likes: 309
From: ON/NY
Panamera is nowhere near as soft as an S Class.
The bottom line is the LS has always been a lower cost alternative to the “real” flagship cars. It always has been. Now that the segment has shrunk to where it is, there just isn’t a broad enough market for “alternatives” to carve out market share. Buyers of these cars are people like me for whom a luxury sedan will always be preferable to an SUV, and we buy the best stuff because we are enthusiasts of that specific segment of cars. So, Lexus could have made an incredible LS that ticks all the boxes (like the G90, frankly) and it would still sell in really small numbers.
Move up people who aspire to own a big flagship sedan can be caught by Lexus and Genesis but those buyers don’t really exist anymore. What’s left are those of us who already drive them and want them and we buy the real deal.
The bottom line is the LS has always been a lower cost alternative to the “real” flagship cars. It always has been. Now that the segment has shrunk to where it is, there just isn’t a broad enough market for “alternatives” to carve out market share. Buyers of these cars are people like me for whom a luxury sedan will always be preferable to an SUV, and we buy the best stuff because we are enthusiasts of that specific segment of cars. So, Lexus could have made an incredible LS that ticks all the boxes (like the G90, frankly) and it would still sell in really small numbers.
Move up people who aspire to own a big flagship sedan can be caught by Lexus and Genesis but those buyers don’t really exist anymore. What’s left are those of us who already drive them and want them and we buy the real deal.
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,687
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From: Ca
Thread Starter
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2020
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From: N/A
Lexus made it much softer after the 2021 refresh. Still made no difference in the public reception of the vehicle.
Thread Starter
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 5,482
Likes: 89
From: N/A
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,687
Likes: 543
From: Ca