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makes no sense to compare. bmw and mercedes are full line ups of cars. lexus is a tiny division of toyota.
also, all this talk of 'the germans' puts me off... why isn't lexus then just called the japanese?
also, almost ALL bmw suvs (savs in their stupid marketing speed), and suvs are the majority of what they sell now, are made in SOUTH CAROLINA not germany.
Because we're referring collectively to 3 automakers who are all known for being German luxury brands? The thread was about Lexus benchmarking them in engineering their cars.
I think it's a discussion that willl become less relevant over time as the IS and LS eventually get killed off, leaving Lexus mainly as a competitor with other Japanese luxury marques like Acura and Infiniti.
Because we're referring collectively to 3 automakers who are all known for being German luxury brands? The thread was about Lexus benchmarking them in engineering their cars.
I think it's a discussion that willl become less relevant over time as the IS and LS eventually get killed off, leaving Lexus mainly as a competitor with other Japanese luxury marques like Acura and Infiniti.
I'm not looking forward to being forced into buying a FWD-based Lexus RX; so sad.
I think it's a discussion that willl become less relevant over time as the IS and LS eventually get killed off, leaving Lexus mainly as a competitor with other Japanese luxury marques like Acura and Infiniti.
I just remembered that the IS was supposed to get some kind of EV replacement that was teased 3 years ago back when Lexus claimed they would go all-BEV by 2030. There have been zero spyshots of any production prototypes since. Wonder if it's already been canned.
I’m talking about back in the day, but even today the LS is a step up from an E Class. Sure people think it’s FWD and they don’t know anything about it because they don’t know anything about it. I had an LS400 when it was new. People thought it was an Avalon and thought it was a V6, doesn’t mean it was. It was a much nicer car than an E Class back then. My best friend’s dad had an E430 and we drove them and compared them all the time. The E was much firmer and Teutonic feeling and didn’t feel nearly as luxurious as the LS400. S Class was always on another level until the 460.
E class has....
Massage seats
500 hp engines
AWD
Air suspension/ABC
Night vision
A hell of a lot of interior upgrade packs
Carbon ceramic brakes
Full Leather
Parking heater
MANY engine options
Option for a wagon
Option for a 2 door coupe
Option for a convertible
Option for full spec rear seating in Europe
Option for a boatload of active assists etc etc Actually drive well in sport spec
Well over half of those options were offered when you could still buy an LS430 new for crying out loud lol! Meanwhile air suspension is STILL optional and the LS500 is extremely slow/underpowered for the class and by far offers the least to the point I would rather max out a E/5/RS6 since the Germans offer proper cars in that size.
Yadda yadda yadda. Lexus already has enough "handling." The majority of the market doesn't care about that. They want luxury, style, reliability, and low costs. Lexus is already where they need to be. They just need fresh products, like anyone else.
Lol. I just can't agree when I see how much every single person I've let drive reacts to the foreign cars and how much more confidence they have. Oh and you can have both comfort and handling, something have doesn't have both is well.....lesser.
I also love how you just have to use the W220 and conveniently ignore the W221 that corrected all the issues.....those articles give the nod sure but as someone who has owned half that list worth of cars and driven them all and worked on all of them and who's friends own the ones I don't own Lexus is last one I'd pick.
As someone who owned both the LSs that won those tests, a 98 LS400 and a 2004 LS430...cost was a big reason why they won. We absolutely considered the german cars an upgrade at both of those times, and the decision to get the LS had a lot to do with cost. The LS was so good at such lower cost it was a no brainer. If cost were no object though my Dad would have had an S Class or 7 Series instead for sure (in 98 he preferred the 7, in 04 the S). Not to say those LSs weren't incredible cars, they were and probably "better cars" but the whole package of the 7 or S was just superior. If you read the text of the comparison they say the same thing...
And that's why I said it competes with the E/5/A6 tier cars, for the money it's a great deal but it's totally eclipsed by a maxed out 5/E and the full flagships are simply on another level.
Cost doesn't have ANY bearing on how good a car is, only if someone can own it or not.
I just remembered that the IS was supposed to get some kind of EV replacement that was teased 3 years ago back when Lexus claimed they would go all-BEV by 2030. There have been zero spyshots of any production prototypes since. Wonder if it's already been canned.
The whole Lexus 100% BEV plan has been canned. Most likely.
Yep. LS were never meant to be the absolute best, but clearly best at the price point. However that was the end of the era.
Lexus then started to up the price without much innovation with the LS460 then well we all know what happened with the LS500.
The 460 was an amazing jump ahead for Lexus, they debuted the worlds first ever 8-speed the AA80E, had an active 48v roll bar system on the LS600, some of the most advanced lighting tech, the worlds first electronic variable cam control in the segment, a 4.6L engine that absolutely punched well outside its tier and size, they stoke Audis suspension tech and also used a really nice aluminum subframe, the car also had one of the most prestigious rear seats in the business and could for the very first time actually say with a straight face it's a legit competitor to the Germans.
Issue is they stopped trying. They needed to upgrade the powertrain badly in 2010-13 but it never happened and they literally got left behind by the base model 6 cyl Germans. They needed to get the advanced diver aids mass rolled out and working super well but they failed that as well, they upgraded the interiors but not nearly enough as well as they never made a true F variant with actually impressive handling etc etc
To be honest the LS was already at death's door with the 460 when Toyota kept refreshing it for a decade instead of releasing a brand new model earlier on. That's probably why they took such a different path with the 500 that eschewed the traditional luxury in an attempt to catch onto the most fashionable sedan trend at the time, which was the Panamera and other 4-door coupes. But Akio's disastrous product planning prevented the 500 from reaching its true potential because Lexus was never able to give it the TTV8 it was designed to have with its completely wasted front mid-engine layout that ate up all passenger space.
It's actually rather ironic that the closest parallel to the LS500 wasn't anything German, it was the Cadillac CT6 which made the exact same mistakes and also got cancelled - but at least it died with the Blackwing V8 that it was designed for. One of the few times GM's poor product planning actually managed to do better than Toyota.
People need to stop with the LS500 being front mid engined. It's not. End of story. It's SLIGHTLY father back than a 460, that's it.
It also doesn't matter at all. ANY of the German options exceed its handling by a massive margin since they offer active suspensions and true sport models with things like TVDs, rear wheel steer, per-wheel full active control, and active correction front steering. Most of this being offered in 2010 and some earlier.....Lexus still doesn't have any of those systems outside of the active sway bars in the LS600h and that thing handles worse than a base 460.
All that said, if Lexus never canceled the TTV8 I would currently own an LSF instead of ever branching out. It's too late for me now since I've tasted the best but they could have had me actually buy a new car if they didn't screw it up so badly.
TTV8 wouldn't have saved LS500. People who wanted that kind of engine performance and Panamera styling would have never looked at Lexus LS just like how they never looked at Jaguar XJ. On the other hand, I find LS500 and Jaguar XJ the only flagships that I would actually drive, all other flagships looked like chauffer cars at the time. Unfortunately, LS500 never had any of the cutting-edge tech to be considered flagship competitor. All other LSes before it came with plethora of tech and many world's first but they didn't have styling. LS500 on the other hand oozes styling but it lacks everything else.
The best driving cars when the XJ existed in order are the Panamera, S8/A8, and XJ with the XJ being the most playful of the group but least controlled and refined when pushed to insane speeds. I really like the XJ and my friend has an XJR
makes no sense to compare. bmw and mercedes are full line ups of cars. lexus is a tiny division of toyota.
also, all this talk of 'the germans' puts me off... why isn't lexus then just called the japanese?
also, almost ALL bmw suvs (savs in their stupid marketing speed), and suvs are the majority of what they sell now, are made in SOUTH CAROLINA not germany.
Because Lexus is the only Japanese brand who is comparable at all lol! What does Honda/Subaru/Nissan make that is worth bringing into the conversation?
There are multiple entire brands from Germany that do luxury cars alongside normal ones. VAG alone offers more than the rest combined
People need to stop hating the fact that the 5th LS became a handling car. IT'S NOT. If anything, the refreshed model became a BOAT and it did NOTHING to improve the sales.
The reason why 5th LS failed isn't because it became more sporty. It was mainly bad calibration of suspension tuning / geometry, and on top of that, run flats exacerbate the harsh ride.
Watch this footage and see how floaty the refreshed 5th LS had become. The W223 looks a lot more athletic to my eyes.
