Front mid-engine layout is what Lexus pushed all the journalists to talk about the time the LS500 made its debut, like here in Motoman's review 49 seconds in:


And to be fair, it did offer rear wheel steering, a variable gear ratio rack, and active stabilizers - albeit only on the RWD models. So Lexus clearly did have sporting Panamera intentions (or pretensions) when the LS500 was launched, unfortunately rather than doubling down with the TTV8 LS-F they just gave up and did a complete 180 with the facelift.

Everyone car debate endlessly about whether it was right for Lexus to change the entire character of the car from a limo like the 460 to a "4-door coupe" with the 500, but there's really no question that Lexus failed to carry out their original plan with this vehicle and thus whatever sporting intentions they had were rendered moot by their lack of faith in their own product.

 

Akio also did a 180 with the 4.5GS at the midlife refresh too.
He softened the coil springs and shock absorbers - which I was able to retrofit.
He also loaded back the sound insulation.
Seems like consumer feedback forced an about face?

 

To be clear, if you believe the second line you don't agree with me lol. Any LS is going to sell max 5k units.

Might be, I could also see Lexus keeping it for their brand position.

But when you drive the two cars the E Class doesn't feel like a flagship car, the LS did and does. If you're talking about an RS6 you're just not a consumer for an LS or S Class etc. The E Class and 5 Series now are the same length that the LS400 and LS430 were, but the LS500 is a foot longer. As someone who likes big flagship cars, I would absolutely choose an LS500 over a E Class or 5 Series. I don't care about the technical benefits etc I want that big sedan feel and those cars just don't have it.

Only if you are looking at cars from a position of not considering buying them. When you are an actual consumer then cost makes a huge difference...which is why in those comparison tests they mention cost repeatedly.

So when the LS500 first came out it did become a handling car, yes the refresh softened the suspension a lot but the car still feels tight and sporty vs a big comfortable cruiser like an S Class or 7 Series. W223 S Class is more athletic, but it also is softer and more comfortable it just has a much better engineered suspension.

 

so basically a 911 compared to the A8

 

The LS500 is front mid engined lol. Slightly further back than the LS460 is all it takes to make it that.

 

is the bulk of the engine behind the front axle? technically that's the definition

 

Yep, it is...

 

There are few factors to poor 5LS sales. Factor zero was LS460 eternal shelf life that has already alienated loyal LS buyers, that 460 facelift was weak stuff. It had a cabin design and quality one level above 4.5GS but other than that it was already behind competition in pretty much everything. V8 hybrid was ahead of it's time but it never caught on like they wanted to in terms of positioning LS closer to S and 7. Then came LS500 and to be honest the styling has alienated rest of the LS buyers who expected understated elegance of big box sedan (On the other hand I've never understood how Audi couldn't translate A8 to LS buyers cause A8 was the most similar flagship to LS). The others who didn't mind the styling were disappointed that it didn't offer much more than 4.5LS460. It didn't offer any of the new driver tech at the time like competitors did. It didn't offer nothing spectacular in driving department to amnesty lack of V8. They had to throw in every trick they got in it to get new buyers but they simply couldn't.

I will say that interior option with glass inside is bonkers awesome but the whole interior is full of already seen and tired stuff. Center console controls again look like decade old despite being touchscreen panel. LS460 had the same problem with the button console as well. It just looks and feels dated. Volume **** on the front center console feels weak and it's placed way too high. It's little details like that ruin the experience. With the facelift tack on touchscreen the whole concept of the interior is lost.

 

That is great Valdi - at least we agree regarding 5LS styling alienation!

IMO, had 5LS not had styling alienation as Valdi attests above, and had 5LS maintained a 105 cu ft passenger compartment with a smooth ride from the start like generations 1-4 LS, then just as 2007 LS outsold a thumping >35k to 2006 S Class's >30k/year USA, then 5LS would have outsold the equivalent S Class in equivalent modern times, and keep in mind that the S Class peaked in 2014 with a solid >25k for W222, then peaked again in 2021 with a solid >12k for W223 - though possibly COVID affected.

As it stands, the current 5LS has the same 99 cu ft passenger compartment as my 4GS.
Even the 2007 Camry had 101 cu ft.
For a full size car, I would expect 105 cu ft.
Just ask Motorola - his pet Genesis G90 has 109 cu ft!

 

I completely and totally disagree. 2007 is a lifetime ago and the segment is absolutely nothing like it was back then. As I have said 100 times you cannot compare sales now to what they were like in 2007.

Also I would add, I am a 4 time LS buyer who has moved on to the S Class of which I have had two now, so I think I have a little insight into this particular subject. No matter how incredible a new Lexus LS might be I would have a hard time envisioning I would ever come back to Lexus. The S Class is so great, and I have the money so why would I go back?

 

In terms of benchmarking German rigidity?
Or superior chassis?
Or V8 TT.

IMO, no!
Or at least not number 1 priorities any way.

Firm coils reduce weight transfer from the inside to the outside wheels, to maximize grip, for near immediate steering response and maximum g's on the skidpan.
Firm shock absorbers minimize float for more body control.

To use firm springs, the chassis must be adequately rigid.
When firm springs are used on a chassis that is NOT adequately rigid, the firm coils do not compress - instead, the chassis that lacks rigidity flexes - also throwing off the suspension geometry.

Hence IMO, chassis rigidity, handling and V8 TT - while important - are not number 1 priorities for Lexus.
Number 1 priorities for Lexus is to get basic: styling, space, comfort, refinement and reliability right.
Only then comes rigid chassis - esp for firm suspension for maximum handling and V8 TT for 0-60.
​​​​​

 

Dmg was done, no matter how softly sprung the facelift had become.
Style is 50 50 (I like the pre-facelift design but traditional buyers dislike it).
It was mainly the powertrain, chassis tuning, NVH, packaging, technology that were lackluster compared to its competitors at the time, ultimately setting the 5th gen up for failure.

 

I'm sure the S-Class drives better than the LS but that Chinese slalom comparison is disingenuous at best when the LS being tested is the LS500h which weighs literally 1000 pounds more than the S400d it's up against and is missing the rear steer and active stabilizer options since it's not the RWD model. The Lexus could have Bose suspension with perfect body control and it still wouldn't save sales.

 

Well the test would be FAR worse if it went up against the AMG suspension cars no matter what options the LS has. Then you have BMW and Audi just laughing at both from the sidelines haha!

 

The Chinese 500h only comes with RWD and the one being tested is executive model (2300 kg).
TBH it didn't matter which model was being tested - whether it was the h, AWD or not. The KM77 had the s400d without any suspension upgrades and while being shorter and lighter (2060kg), it didn't perform any better than the heavier (2200kg), longer Chinese version with 4matic and rear steer, objectively speaking. The Chinese one exhibits livelier motion moving through cones due to rear steer, but otherwise, body control of both models don't look too much different. So that kinda rules out the weight being the primary factor influencing the tests. Suspension design and geometry are the main contributors.

That being said, chassis tuning is just one aspect of the car's overall performance. The 5th LS failed for reasons I have mentioned earlier.

Cannot disagree. Although I do think that active stabilizer and DRS from the F Sport do help them match closer to the competition.