Who is buying the new LS?
03-07-18, 10:42 AM
#31
Instructor
Thread Starter
I was a die-hard Lexus LS fan for many years. (We had 4 of them and loved them all) About a year ago I needed to get another luxury car and at that time the LS460 was very outdated and the G90 V6 I test drove was disappointing. So I paid a little more (OK a lot more) and got a very well optioned Mercedes S550. There is simply nothing to compare. After test driving the new LS500 IMHO its terrible (for so many reasons) that I crossed it off my list. I also just test drove the G90 with the 5.0 Liter V8 and was not impressed either. The LS500 was supposed to be a world class luxury car that could compete with the MBZ S550. Its not even in the same class. A luxury car of this level must do more than check all the critical boxes. It needs to have presence, look lime a million bucks and make you feel special when you're driving it. Furthermore, everything about a luxury car should be effortless and be done with a hush (Without shock and awe). I'm sure the reliability of the LS will be great and so will their workmanship. But that's simply not enough anymore for a world class flagship luxury car. I'm sorry, but I'm very disappointed with the new LS. (I do love my 2017 LX and hope that when the LX gets refreshed they improve it on the one hand but stay true to what it is on the other)
The S550 is in a league of its own, and Lexus should have tried to join this league with the LS500. The S550 is in demand across all generations, which is a feat Lexus still hasn't mastered with their flagship. We will see if the new LS500 breaks the trend of the LS being an elderly persons car. I have seen people saying the new LS should have been the new GS, and if that was the case, this thing would be a home run!
03-07-18, 10:59 AM
#33
Instructor
Thread Starter
That was why I started this trend in the first place. Club Lexus has always been full of early adopters, so I thought we would for sure see members snapping up the earliest examples.
03-07-18, 11:45 AM
#34
Anyway, really glad with the new competition that is entering the market. Guess the G90 will force Lexus to up its game, just like what Lexus did to the German marques three decades ago.
03-07-18, 07:39 PM
#35
I too was expecting a much larger leap forward after all this time.
Even if you did want a "sportier" car, I don't see it leapfrogging the competition
03-12-18, 08:57 AM
#36
Here' what I posted on another thread...
Someone on this board asked if the S550 w/ night vision and driver assistance pkg has any issues. I have a 2017 S550 with the driver's assistance package (no night vision) but many other options and they all work very well. I have fallen in love the S550. After 4 LS sedans, I was hoping the 5LS would be amazing, and it's not. I'm glad I didn't wait. And as to refresh cycles that someone else mentioned, Lexus LS had a 6 year refresh cycle. (After 3 years a facelift and minor upgrades and after 6 years a new car). The 4LS came out in 2007 (10 years ago) and has gone through 2 face lifts. (So has The Lexus LX and Toyota Tundra by the way). Mercedes has an 8 year cycle for the S-class. with a refresh at the 4-year mark. Had I purchased the Lexus LS last year it would have been a car with 10 year old design and technology. I know Lexus (and Toyota) went cheap during the recession and opted for a 2nd refresh after the 6 year mark (or so) instead of launching a new car, but that's not a winning formula. (The LX-470 was 10 years on the market as well, so buyers who leased them, ended up having to lease the exact same car 3 times, so instead they got bored and moved on to another vehicle. They then launched the LX-570 which was much bigger and much more expensive than the LX-470 and lost a ton of sales) If Lexus wants to be successful (IMHO) They need to go back to 6-year cycles on all their cars and design their LS sedans for the older crowd that can afford these cars and want a very quiet, very smooth effortless driving, somewhat conservative luxury sedan. On a side note, my wife has a 2012 RX-350 and wants a new car. She got to drive the new RX when I got one as a loaner while hers was in service. She liked the way it drove and felt but could not get over the looks. She too is done with Lexus. She fits the RX buyer profile perfectly (late 50s, makes a very good income, she's classy, she likes luxury cars, has driven 3 LS sedans and one RX over the last 20 years, etc) It does not bode well for Lexus if they can't keep their core clients. I hope there are enough younger buyers ready to step up and by Lexus vehicles, because the feel on this board (and many others) is that Lexus' core customers are not happy with the massive front-end grill, making their luxury cars sportier, long replacement cycles, and a more complicated user interface. (Yes, on the new LS one must scroll through several menus to get to the seat warmers, and once there, the controls are not logical. How do you screw that one up Lexus?) s
Someone on this board asked if the S550 w/ night vision and driver assistance pkg has any issues. I have a 2017 S550 with the driver's assistance package (no night vision) but many other options and they all work very well. I have fallen in love the S550. After 4 LS sedans, I was hoping the 5LS would be amazing, and it's not. I'm glad I didn't wait. And as to refresh cycles that someone else mentioned, Lexus LS had a 6 year refresh cycle. (After 3 years a facelift and minor upgrades and after 6 years a new car). The 4LS came out in 2007 (10 years ago) and has gone through 2 face lifts. (So has The Lexus LX and Toyota Tundra by the way). Mercedes has an 8 year cycle for the S-class. with a refresh at the 4-year mark. Had I purchased the Lexus LS last year it would have been a car with 10 year old design and technology. I know Lexus (and Toyota) went cheap during the recession and opted for a 2nd refresh after the 6 year mark (or so) instead of launching a new car, but that's not a winning formula. (The LX-470 was 10 years on the market as well, so buyers who leased them, ended up having to lease the exact same car 3 times, so instead they got bored and moved on to another vehicle. They then launched the LX-570 which was much bigger and much more expensive than the LX-470 and lost a ton of sales) If Lexus wants to be successful (IMHO) They need to go back to 6-year cycles on all their cars and design their LS sedans for the older crowd that can afford these cars and want a very quiet, very smooth effortless driving, somewhat conservative luxury sedan. On a side note, my wife has a 2012 RX-350 and wants a new car. She got to drive the new RX when I got one as a loaner while hers was in service. She liked the way it drove and felt but could not get over the looks. She too is done with Lexus. She fits the RX buyer profile perfectly (late 50s, makes a very good income, she's classy, she likes luxury cars, has driven 3 LS sedans and one RX over the last 20 years, etc) It does not bode well for Lexus if they can't keep their core clients. I hope there are enough younger buyers ready to step up and by Lexus vehicles, because the feel on this board (and many others) is that Lexus' core customers are not happy with the massive front-end grill, making their luxury cars sportier, long replacement cycles, and a more complicated user interface. (Yes, on the new LS one must scroll through several menus to get to the seat warmers, and once there, the controls are not logical. How do you screw that one up Lexus?) s
03-12-18, 12:09 PM
#37
It does not bode well for Lexus if they can't keep their core clients. I hope there are enough younger buyers ready to step up and by Lexus vehicles, because the feel on this board (and many others) is that Lexus' core customers are not happy with the massive front-end grill, making their luxury cars sportier, long replacement cycles, and a more complicated user interface. (Yes, on the new LS one must scroll through several menus to get to the seat warmers, and once there, the controls are not logical. How do you screw that one up Lexus?) s
We must be constructive.
What is the solution to all this?
Would you rather Lexus go back to making genuine full size luxury sedans like 1/2/3/4LS?
Or would you rather Lexus make their full size luxury sedan in two different body styles like Mercedes and BMW:
(1) a traditional conservatively styled spacious soft riding quiet full size luxury sedan like: 1-4LS/S Class/7 Series/A8,
(2) and a niche curvaceous raked windscreen radically styled low center of gravity dynamic handling full size luxury sedan like the Mercedes AMG GT, BMW M8 and forthcoming Audi A9 4 door Gran Coupes?
I knew there was a rumoured sporty niche Audi A9, but I wasn't aware that the full size sporty niche Mercedes AMG GT & BMW M8 4 door Gran Coupes existed - or I did hear about the latter two, but I thought they were only 2 door coupes; until I bumped into a BMW M8 4 door Gran Coupe YouTube video, and Hoovey pointed out the Benz AMG GT in 4 door Gran Coupe version.
Now that there is a spate of full size luxury 4 door Gran Coupes, I finally realize where Lexus 5LS is going wrong.
Not only is Lexus behind in engine choices, they are also behind in body style choices.
Ironically, back in the 1980's, it was actually Toyota Motor Corporation who had such a huge plethora in engine and body style choices.
Nowadays, may be the Japanese are counting their dollars?
1992 Toyota Corolla
1992 Toyota Sprinter hardtop [based on Corolla platform & drivelines]
Low, curvaceous, swoopy, with sports suspension, and high performance engines.
Last edited by peteharvey; 03-12-18 at 09:52 PM.
03-13-18, 08:27 AM
#38
I want to. REALLY want to. But feel the LS is too much like an enlarged GS. I don't want a sporty, huge sedan. I want a quiet plush mobile that feels like an air hockey puck floating on air. This car does not achieve that. A lot of compromises. Money not the issue, the car is. I do not think they will sell a lot of them, probably less than last generation. Genesis is looking to become the leader in this large sedan segment. I am still pondering it.
03-13-18, 12:13 PM
#39
Instructor
Thread Starter
I want to. REALLY want to. But feel the LS is too much like an enlarged GS. I don't want a sporty, huge sedan. I want a quiet plush mobile that feels like an air hockey puck floating on air. This car does not achieve that. A lot of compromises. Money not the issue, the car is. I do not think they will sell a lot of them, probably less than last generation. Genesis is looking to become the leader in this large sedan segment. I am still pondering it.
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corpnupe85 (07-07-18)
03-13-18, 12:42 PM
#40
My parents have been die-hard Lexus fans since close to the beginning. They were loyal to Mercedes until the launch of the 1992 S-Class, which is when my dad bought a 1993 LS400, as he thought it was more like the 1985 380SE he was driving at the time. They have been mostly loyal to Lexus since then, but my dad has moved back to Mercedes. My mom is still in a Lexus, but doesn't know what her next car will be, as none of the Lexus models are doing it for her anymore. I also am not sure what Lexus I would get next. I really don't like any of the new models. The only one on my radar would be a 2016/17 GS350 with the Luxury package, otherwise it would be a make other than Lexus.
The S550 is in a league of its own, and Lexus should have tried to join this league with the LS500. The S550 is in demand across all generations, which is a feat Lexus still hasn't mastered with their flagship. We will see if the new LS500 breaks the trend of the LS being an elderly persons car. I have seen people saying the new LS should have been the new GS, and if that was the case, this thing would be a home run!
The S550 is in a league of its own, and Lexus should have tried to join this league with the LS500. The S550 is in demand across all generations, which is a feat Lexus still hasn't mastered with their flagship. We will see if the new LS500 breaks the trend of the LS being an elderly persons car. I have seen people saying the new LS should have been the new GS, and if that was the case, this thing would be a home run!
I personally believe that Lexus, Audi, Genesis, BMW, Jaguar and Cadillac have all thrown in the towel regarding trying to beat the Mercedes-Benz S-Class. The S-class has been a very successful car for Mercedes Benz for many decades. The first car that comes to mind when most people think of big and luxurious(besides Bentley and Rolls)is S-class.
Last time I checked all the other full-size Luxury car segment competitors combined sales still didn’t equal how many S-classes Daimler sold in just 12 months. The W221 series which debuted in 2007 sold better it last 4 years of sales than it did when it was a freshly debuting model in ‘07.
My point is the car companies that compete with Mercedes aren't dumb they see how many S-class are sold every year compared to their own full-size car. They are all trying to seriously compete for just second place. That’s why every single car that’s competes with the S-class starts $10k-20k less than a S-class with similar options and equipment. They all know they can’t charge the same money that Mercedes demands and expect their products to sell. If Lexus can win second place and just beat the 7 series and A8 they will be overjoyed. No one is replacing the Mercedes S-class as sales leader of the fullsize segment for years to come. I guess that’s what happens when you have nearly 140 years of heritage to ride the wave of.
03-14-18, 04:32 AM
#41
I want to. REALLY want to. But feel the LS is too much like an enlarged GS. I don't want a sporty, huge sedan. I want a quiet plush mobile that feels like an air hockey puck floating on air. This car does not achieve that. A lot of compromises. Money not the issue, the car is. I do not think they will sell a lot of them, probably less than last generation. Genesis is looking to become the leader in this large sedan segment. I am still pondering it.
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corpnupe85 (07-07-18)
03-14-18, 07:47 AM
#42
People are willing to pay more for the S-Class because it's better! And, because it's worth it! G-90s are selling much better too since they too, at their price point offers a great car at a great value. The 5LS simply misses the mark. It's not what most ultra-luxury sedan owners want. IMHO, if they want the new LS to sell successfully, rebadge it as a GS, lower the price and it will fly off the shelves. Then re-design the LS to be a proper ultra-luxury sedan with a V8, make it smooth, quiet, large with presence and logical controls, and watch the LS buyers return. Just saying....
03-14-18, 09:50 AM
#43
People are willing to pay more for the S-Class because it's better! And, because it's worth it! G-90s are selling much better too since they too, at their price point offers a great car at a great value. The 5LS simply misses the mark. It's not what most ultra-luxury sedan owners want. IMHO, if they want the new LS to sell successfully, rebadge it as a GS, lower the price and it will fly off the shelves. Then re-design the LS to be a proper ultra-luxury sedan with a V8, make it smooth, quiet, large with presence and logical controls, and watch the LS buyers return. Just saying....
I agree with your first sentence the S-class is the best in its segment and for good reason. Mercedes sold nearly 16k S-classes in 12 months last year, and that was prior to the facelift which just went on sale.
The Genesis G90 is hardly what I would call a segment leader. It’s sales are mediocre at best selling around 4K cars last year. The A8L and 7 series both doubled the G90’s sales nearly cracking into 10k sales in 2017 each.
The newly redesigned G90 barely beat the dirt-old LS460 by about 300 units in total sales for 2017.
Regarding the LS needing a V8 as standard equipment. I disagree with you there as well. The LS500 standard 3.5l V6 has more torque and horsepower than all the six cylinder engines available from its direct competitors.
I don’t have the breakdown on hand for the competition six cylinder vs V8 sales, but I have a hunch that about 50% of 7 series and A8L sales are with the six cylinder option. I’m sure Mercedes mix is more like 75% V8 & 25% V6. The G90 starts around $65k with a twin turbo six and I hear you can barely tell the difference in acceleration between it and it’s V8 brethren.
I also know Lexus is planning a brand new turbocharged V8 which will launch in a year or so, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see that engine as a option in the LS.
I think the LS is a awesome new addition to the Lexus line. Yes, I hear the back seat is smaller than many expected, but stretching it’s wheelbase another inch or two makes more since than trying to sell it as GS for less money. As a 4GS owner I agree with you about Lexus needing to make the controls more logical in the 5LS. In this Luxury car segment brand prestige and heritage holds a big candle in regards to how consumers who buy these cars judge the car they are buying. Yes value plays a key role too, but people don’t dream of owning a Genesis, as some people certainly do with some of its German competitors.
My point is Lexus has built a solid name for its self in the luxury car market and Lexus has fallen off its podium a little, they just need to remix the formula properly which I believe they will by the time the mid life cycle facelift rolls around in 3 years time.
Last edited by highrev6; 03-14-18 at 09:57 AM.
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corpnupe85 (07-07-18)
03-14-18, 07:13 PM
#44
1 engine, take it or leave it
I too was expecting a much larger leap forward after all this time.
Even if you did want a "sportier" car, I don't see it leapfrogging the competition