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Say what you like - how about "No more boring cars".
In 12 months time, let's see if the 5LS sells against the competition in a similar way to its previous four generations of predecessors.
You saw what happened to 4GS in 2012 - it dipped by 10,000+ units or about 30%, when the E Class stretched its record from 59,000+ to 69,000+ units...
50 is the new 40 and middle age guys are trying to stay young looking as long as they can. No offense to anybody who wears a comb over. But the days of guys wearing a comb-over and driving a grandpa looking luxo-barge are out of style. Most of the middle age guys I hang around just shave their head bald or they get hair reassignment surgery.
I brought this subject matter up to diminish the rumor that Lexus isn’t trying to market to millennials with $200k in college loan debt. They are instead marketing to a young at heart baby boomer who wears high water pants to show off their trendy colorful socks. High gloss Wood trim and lots of chrome reminds buyer of their fathers or mothers cars. Sexy 4 door low slung 4 door coupés are the talk of the town, yes there are a few buyers who still want that old world luxury look and feel, But the majority of Lexus’s middle consumer base are seeking trends that make them look, feel and appear younger.
Lexus is focused on finding the daring buyer who bungee jumps in the grand canyon on the weekends and back is in the office Monday morning ready to work.
The LS hasn’t been on sale 2 months yet. Let’s give it a full year and let’s wait for them to launch it with the yet to be unveiled twin turbo V8 before we fully judge who’s not buying it and why.
I think some of your definitions of middle age white collar conusmer are 10 years outdated.
Well - Here are my 2 cents worth - with my current LEXUS stable consisting of 2014 F sport LS & 2015 LX 570.
Drove bothe the F-Sport LS and a loaded version with Lux package with MSRP of $100.819
Underwhelmed would be the kindest I can put it.
I had just picked up my 2014 F Sport from the detailer - drove to the dealer - and met up with an amazing young sales professional (no - Master Sales consultant) who was VERY knowledgeable and experienced.
He complimented my ride - especially the Flaxen interior...
Though he was very knowledgeable, and had track driven the new LS at Sears Point recently - he was almost apologetic describing the features and benefits of the new car.
He reiterated that the price point of the LS500 is the low level 740...low trim A8, six banger S-Class.
True - but what does LEXUS offer a tad higher up?
Nothing.
The exterior styling is ... new -
But the interior - and overall - is lackluster...
(Honestly if both the cars - my 2014 and a 2018 were side by side - I would be hard pressed to choose the 2018)
It is smaller (sure looks and feels it)
The engine is louder and working harder (Lux to me is effortless whafting ...sort of )
The info controls suck.
The cruise controls - Lane departure and collision avoidance are the same...4 years and no improvement?
The interior is just too busy....trying too hard.
But mostly - GRAVITAS is gone. The 2014 feels like a bank vault on wheels - the 2018...no.
....it really feels like a high end mid level sedan....an E class of 5 Series with all the options.... maybe even Aziera or Maxima - don't even get me started on the GENESIS.
If you want BAD *** - this is NOT IT.
This plays into grey haired Florida ......AARP.....that want good 30 mpg economy.
Frankly I was glad to get back into my 2014 and motor home -
I put my V-8 into Sport+ and enjoyed the punch and ride.
I definitely won't be trading in my 2014 for a 2018 LS
If they have a higher performance LS next year (with the LC engine?) or a higher performance LC - or convertible LC - I'm in....
But the LS is just not a top level sedan anymore.
But.....the ownership experience - sales and service - is the BEST...
Sigh.....
I still have not had a chance to get behind the wheel of the LS500 FSport..... will probab. do tomorrow when I take my daughter's 05 GX470 in for service (currently sitting at 185,000 miles)
After reading this.....I'm thinking that I'm going to be holding on to my '16 460 FSport..... Love the car.. (except for some annoying things like functions getting locked after car goes past 5mph, no way to save the drive setting to S+, etc)... Oh.. and the fact that it only has 11k miles..... and looks like I just drove it off the showroom flr
Say what you like - how about "No more boring cars".
In 12 months time, let's see if the 5LS sells against the competition in a similar way to its previous four generations of predecessors.
You saw what happened to 4GS in 2012 - it dipped by 10,000+ units or about 30%, when the E Class stretched its record from 59,000+ to 69,000+ units...
I drove the LS5 today - F-Sport and loaded lux - MSRP 102K
Used to be a die hard BMW fan. That's all I owned for a while before even looking at Lexus. But the dealerships exp. coupled with the sketchy reliability and horrific resale turned me over.... to Mercedes.
So I then owned 3 diff. SClasses and 1 S63 AMG. Bought that AMG in 09 brand new for $131,000... sold it in 2013 with 11k miles for $92,000 after running into a couple of engine issues..... and HORRIFIC dealership exp.
Meanwhile my wife's 06 GX470 was going great guns... no issues whatsoever... and I always LOVED going to the dealership and getting that king treatment.... So I slapped myself silly ... and went all in with Lexus...
Now getting that itch again... and yearning for that throbbing bad *** feel of the SClass (only thing that holds me back is the feeling of walking into a MB dealership ... which in Austin happens to be in the real bad part of town - go figure!)
Last edited by AustinHusk; Mar 29, 2018 at 07:20 PM.
Don't drive the new F-Sport -
Unless you drive a new M5 - same price..
OMG.
BMW - I'm lovin you all over again
I understand you like to troll and all, “who doesn’t”, but I’m still confused as to why you keep comparing BMW’s midsize executive saloon with a track tuned V8 to Lexus’s largest saloon with a base engine. Yes the two cars your reffering to have the same MSRP. But that would be no different than me comparing a base X6M with a loaded LX570. They don’t compete they just happen to share the same price tag.
Im sure we would all enjoy the fun handling and ridiculous straight line acceleration of the new M5 vs the 2018 LS500 if we test drove them back to back.
50 is the new 40 and middle age guys are trying to stay young looking as long as they can. No offense to anybody who wears a comb over. But the days of guys wearing a comb-over and driving a grandpa looking luxo-barge are out of style. Most of the middle age guys I hang around just shave their head bald or they get hair reassignment surgery.
I brought this subject matter up to diminish the rumor that Lexus isn’t trying to market to millennials with $200k in college loan debt. They are instead marketing to a young at heart baby boomer who wears high water pants to show off their trendy colorful socks. High gloss Wood trim and lots of chrome reminds buyer of their fathers or mothers cars. Sexy 4 door low slung 4 door coupés are the talk of the town, yes there are a few buyers who still want that old world luxury look and feel, But the majority of Lexus’s middle consumer base are seeking trends that make them look, feel and appear younger.
I agree 100%. The idea that this car is aimed at millennials is asinine. You think Panamaras are bought by millennials? no lol.
Originally Posted by peteharvey
Say what you like - how about "No more boring cars".
In 12 months time, let's see if the 5LS sells against the competition in a similar way to its previous four generations of predecessors.
Its easy for people to do a lot of opining on the internet without having actually experienced the things they're discussing. Instead of typing, why don't you go drive an LS500 and compare it to an LS460. I know from previous conversations with you that not only have you never driven either one, you've never driven ANY Lexus LS of ANY generation.
Having owned 4 LS's from 3 different generations, all but the first generation, the 5LS is really not dramatically different to drive. Its more dynamic and more interesting for sure, but it retains a really surprising amount of the 4LS's ride comfort and isolation despite being exponentially more fun to drive.
My issues with the car are the powertrain and the smaller space inside, not with the way it rides and drives at all. I'd happily buy a 5LS if it had more rear legroom and more headroom in front. Hell, I'll probably wind up buying one when my 4LS is done in any event.
The "shift" is way overblown.
Originally Posted by xfea
After tasting the New LS - I'd buy the NEW ES over the LS
You say this not having seen anything about the new ES let alone having driven it. As someone who has had the LS and then gone down to the ES and back to the LS, the only reason you would actually do that is if you couldn't afford the LS any longer. The ES feels very cheap compared to the LS, the new one will be no different.
Originally Posted by highrev6
I understand you like to troll and all, “who doesn’t”, but I’m still confused as to why you keep comparing BMW’s midsize executive saloon with a track tuned V8 to Lexus’s largest saloon with a base engine. Yes the two cars your reffering to have the same MSRP. But that would be no different than me comparing a base X6M with a loaded LX570. They don’t compete they just happen to share the same price tag.
Im sure we would all enjoy the fun handling and ridiculous straight line acceleration of the new M5 vs the 2018 LS500 if we test drove them back to back.
It makes no sense. Why not compare the LS500 to a 911 while we're at it? Hey they both have 4 wheels.
Its easy for people to do a lot of opining on the internet without having actually experienced the things they're discussing. Instead of typing, why don't you go drive an LS500 and compare it to an LS460. I know from previous conversations with you that not only have you never driven either one, you've never driven ANY Lexus LS of ANY generation.
Having owned 4 LS's from 3 different generations, all but the first generation, the 5LS is really not dramatically different to drive. Its more dynamic and more interesting for sure, but it retains a really surprising amount of the 4LS's ride comfort and isolation despite being exponentially more fun to drive.
My issues with the car are the powertrain and the smaller space inside, not with the way it rides and drives at all. I'd happily buy a 5LS if it had more rear legroom and more headroom in front. Hell, I'll probably wind up buying one when my 4LS is done in any event.
The "shift" is way overblown.
One doesn't have to actually test drive a 5LS nor a Porsche Panamera to comment on basic principles and philosophies, and the eventual outcome in public popularity and sales.
"No more boring cars", or an iteration of that in "targeting young millennials" etc - let's see how the public opine in the sales.
Mercedes is easily successful, since they have two (2) separate body styles to satisfy both tastes: in the popular conventional spacious soft riding S Class sedan, and in the low volume sporty niche AMG GT 4 door Gran Coupe.
Porsche only has the one model Panamera 4 door Gran Coupe, so what more can they expect in terms of headroom, legroom, and sales volume.
Likewise, you've already told us how compact the 5LS interior is - now we just have to be patient for 12 months to see the sales popularity.
Take things for what they are.
Let's not "pretend" that Kim Jong Un's nuclear weapons are not dangerous.
.
Last edited by peteharvey; Mar 29, 2018 at 06:51 PM.
Sorry, if you want anybody to take your viewpoints on something seriously, you need to have some sort of experience with it yourself. If you would experience it yourself you would see that the difference you see in it compared to older models of the car doesn’t really exist,but then you have no idea what older models of the car were like because you’ve never driven any of them.
Nobody is targeting “young millenials with this car lol. It’s not only millenials who don’t want their cars to be boring. The only person who has said that is you, and you quote it like it’s some quote from Akio Toyoda.
If I was in the market for a full size luxury sedan, then I'd test drive, and give an opinion on space, performance, handling and ride etc.
However, I am only commenting on the overall concept, and the success of that concept in sales volume.
As such, no more boring cars, or targeting young millennials means basically the same thing - designing sports-oriented motor vehicles.
Aka Porsche Panamera or Mercedes AMG GT, which we both know are only sporty niches with front mid-engines which sell in low volume - unlike the conventional spacious front-engined S Class that is the segment's market leader.
Both 5LS's lower cabin height and front midship engine location delivers greater handling while maintaining the ride comfort as you say, but at the cost to headroom and legroom.
Front mid-engine location lowers the weight bearing on the front tires to increase front end gripe.
Front mid-engine also lowers the polar moment of inertia bringing the engine's mass closer to the Yaw Center, so that the vehicle changes direction faster [agile] like an ice skater with her arms brought together.
I'm amazed at how you can't see that such a low front mid-engined sports niche design cannot be spacious, and consequently nor can it sell in large volumes.
Neither Porsche nor Mercedes expect the Panamera nor the AMG GT 4 door Gran Coupes to sell in appreciable volume, and neither Porsche nor Benz care for Panamera or AMG GT sales, because they often already have high volume selling "derivatives" in the Audi A8 & Mercedes S Class respectively!
The 5LS will certainly sell better than Panamera & AMG GT, but not sure if it can reach appreciable volumes relative to the class leading S Class.
Yet 5LS is here to sell, and Toyota Motor Corporation is here to make money.
In truth, 5LS should NOT do sporty low front mid-engine niches, when they do not already have an existing conventional spacious high volume selling derivative.
One man's opinion or test drive experience has nothing to do with 5LS public popularity and sales figures to be released early 2019.
One man's test drive is just an opinion.
Nationwide 5LS public popularity and sales volume is a fact....
Front Engine versus Front Mid-Engine.
Dynamics at the expense of cabin space.
Last edited by peteharvey; Mar 30, 2018 at 11:12 PM.
How good is the voice recognition system in the LS500 and how is the actual voice interface as a substitute for using the RTC? Do voice commands allow one to bypass the nested menu design of the RTC?
How good is the voice recognition system in the LS500 and how is the actual voice interface as a substitute for using the RTC? Do voice commands allow one to bypass the nested menu design of the RTC?
Voice recognition is cloud-based and is significantly better than the last generation's which I never used because it was so limited. Since it is cloud-based, I would also expect it to get better over time. So far, I've used it for navigation and also to adjust the temperature. I actually have no issues with the touch-pad controller (have always enjoyed using one on my laptop) and like it better than the old joystick. But I did adjust the sensitivity / tracking speed so it would be faster. I also reduced the feedback intensity so it wasn't so jarring and turned off the beeps.
Now in terms of the interface / menu design, I've not found myself needing to use it a lot. The climate concierge is good. I just adjust the cabin temperature and it sets everything (steering wheel, seat ventilation) to my liking. There is a physical button (near the center armrest) to adjust the finer seat settings and to activate the massage. I've not found myself needing to adjust the seat after setting it properly the first few times. To activate the massage, I press the physical button and then use the touchpad to select the massage I like. That's about as much as I use while driving. Overall I quite like the interface of the 5LS.
)
(only thing that holds me back is the feeling of walking into a MB dealership ... which in Austin happens to be in the real bad part of town - go figure!)
