Yeah I mean water pumps. Whoops! Haha

 

That's what I thought

 

I may have used this example before so forgive me.

VW backup cam embedded into the emblem that pivots out in reverse is a perfect example.

How many winters do they expect that to last in the NE or Canada with all the salt and brine on the roads?? One season? Two? All for the sake of someone saying “Ohhh neat” at the dealership.

Toyota just puts the camera there somewhere around the plate, backup cams are teensy these days, no big deal. Should work fine for the life of the vehicle.

I bet the backup cam fix just the actuator is a $1000 repair. I wouldn’t be shocked if “the camera also went out” is what the dealer would tell the customer as well.

 

lol, but what your post omits is that the very same salt and brine COVERS that toyota camera in about 5 minutes of driving. by having it 'hidden', it stays clean.

 

I'm probably biased toward higher end cars where the hybrid is certainly not as effective as the econoboxes. I wouldn't even consider the Prius the same as the civic or corolla at all since I see the civic as only the type R and the corolla as so low on the totem pole I forgot it exists lol!

I would never want a hybrid version of any of the cars I normally look at since they are more complex, drive worse, and are too slow and it only takes one repair to permanently make pointless any fuel savings. Plus bought new it takes way too long to break even vs a normal car price wise.

 

I'm not a fan of hybrids either, but Toyota does them well. They never break down. My brother in law's Avalon... which is not cheap, is well past 150k and never had an issue. My other brother in law's hybrid Highlander is way past 200k and never has had any issues related to engine or trans. Battery packs for both those mentioned vehicles are cheap and can be done diy if you have a little know how

 

That is assuming you can DIY, if it does go and needs replacement that nulls out the cost savings assuming it makes it break even with zero service costs. I have seen them break down so it not impossible since a mechanical device is a mechanical device and all.

 

They are Toyotas, and built just as well as any Toyota. The batteries last more than 10 years, and even if you have to replace them, you've still saved money on gas and brakes. A refurbished battery pack is about $1400 with warranty, and my mechanic changes them out for about $400. Now you have another 5 to 10 years on the batteries

 

The breakeven takes a while, concerning the Highlander you have 35.5k vs 39k for the base versions 25 vs 35 mpg.....the ICE only can drive 25,000 miles before breaking even on cost with a hybrid that is not driven at all. The Ice V6 is 6.5-6.7 sec 7.3-7.5 second 0-60 for the hybird so the hybrid is again slower than the ICE and if you spend the same amount on an ICE only you get a much better equipped car at only a 800 vs 571 gallons used per 20k miles or $2800 $1998 current price per year overall to fuel them. Real world highway also favors the ICE only car.

Corolla..... Hybrid is $23,750, ICE is $20,175 for base or $20,625 for same equipment as the Hybrid. $3000 in gas at the ICE 33 EPA mpg equates to 28,285 miles or nearly an entire lease period before the hybrid can even start driving. The hybrid has actual observed fuel economy of only 45 highway while the ICE maintains 41 in actual real world driving, combined is 30 vs 42 usually. 0-60 performance is 10.7 seconds vs 7.3-8.0 with the ICE being faster and one year costs of fuel leave the hybrid with only a 25% cost advantage.

Prius.....well it's more pricy than the corolla hybrid to the point I can get a Camry instead and the base version of that gets 35 average and higher real world highway.

There is no situation I see the hybrid as winning this and if you factor in not nearly as many shops can work on hybrids and DIY requires a somewhat harder to learn skillset due to having both the engine and EV system and differing services procedures that are not as well documented......and use of dealer level tools for some operations I don't see any point. The $1800 battery fix you mentioned is thousands upon thousands of miles advantage to the ICE if it happens. This plays out a lot of any hybrid vs their equivalent speed/equipment ICE only or EV only car, you usually pay more, have a slower car, and less equipment for a given price. This is not like an EV where fuel costs mostly go out the window if you can home charge. As it currently stands for the length of a lease you can almost drive a ICE only for a full lease period before you get to the base price of a hybrid.

The EPA figures are also VERY generous toward smaller/hybrid engines in general on the "highway" side of things since the test is conducted at such a low speed, real world interstate or normal highway speeds really kills the hybrids advantage so I feel that unless you are doing a lot of stop and go or low speed driving there is not even nearly as much of an advantage as I wrote above concerning MPG. You will very often find that on interstate or highway the larger engine beating or tying smaller ones that on paper they lose to.

The Germans know this and designed their cars so that if you buy a hybrid from them it actually makes sense and also so that their ICE only offerings BEAT the other brands hybrids for operation cost to say nothing of speed and performance. Look at what you can buy from VW or the others vs Toyota/Lexus/Mazda/Ford/Hyundai and you will see that the Germans are a quite a way ahead of all of them and massively so if you are only talking leases since then long term reliability is irrelevant.

 

Having worked with German engineers in Germany and living there for a while... well, not all are like this luckily!
But what makes German engineering different is actually cultural.

In Germany it's considered normal to have 'all the options' available. You might not care for half, but you'd be slightly offended if they weren't offered to you, while some other dude ringing up could get them.
What this leads to is spurious/unnecessary engineering of features and gimmicks, that absolutely drive complexity to a level where failure is almost a given. Or even more blatant (than good Japanese engineering) inclusion of planned obsolescence/failure points. Even on their own TV there were programs showing how Audi changed their approach to rust proofing over various generations (via sectioning/analysis). They 'optimised' the rust proof coating on the underside of the body, to be just enough to get through warranty and not much further beyond that in later models.
Engineering like that is what pisses me off and makes me absolutely pan any German post '00 or mid 90s car to anyone who wants them and asks. Secondly the parts in my country are vastly more expensive than in Germany/EU and this is also a big factor. Many times more than Lexus/Toyota etc.


In short: unnecessary complexity due to option list engineering **** measuring contests, anti consumer engineering and ruthless cost cutting engineering is why there is a difference. Japanese do all of the above but to a far lesser extent and when needed, not always.

 

Show some examples of this.

 

I agree that, particularly for Mercedes and BMW, there was a significant quality-drop, starting in the late 90s, in the solidness of the vehicles. You could (easily) tell it in sheet metal thickness, solidness of door closings (which, in the 1980s, were like tanks), hardware solidness....after the 90s, everything just had a lighter, thinner, flimsier feel to it. Consumer Reports noted a drop in reliability, particularly for Mercedes. And, with BMW, the Chris Bangle cars essentially traded new electronics, controversial styling, and lighter-grade engineering for the former solidness and driving-dynamics. With BMWs, you could also see the drop in the solid feel of the vehicle.

In some ways, though, VWs, on the lower end of the German scale, actually got better during that period, although somewhat hampered by unreliable electronics, cost-cutting on the Jetta and Golf, and customer-unfriendly American dealerships.

 

Most of their cars have plug in versions or incorporate some hybrid systems, my A8 has a mild hybrid system for example. BMW has a bunch of cars that have electric assists with more coming in, same with VW overseas and they are looking like they are going to bring more models over here. They just don't badge a car as a hybrid even if it uses the tech to some degree, usually it has to be a full on EV for that.

 

Mild hybrid is not a full hybrid. Simply not comparable to a full hybrid. Toyota is far ahead of every manufacture for hybrids, both on tech, scale, cost l, availability and MPG/performance. There is no doubt.

Now we are seeing Toyota move into plug in hybrids Full size truck/suv hybrids and they have modified their designs to move on performance like in the Tundra/Sequoia.

Toyota is now adding turbos to their full hybrids and will moving into solid state batteries for their hybrids. Toyota is now adding 10 speeds to their hybrids too

 

You are right it's not comparable, they are superior. Faster, better mpg, better cost overall. There is not a single Toyota hybrid that is fast or performance.......and that's comparing them to their in brand ICE only versions, the new tundra will be the clearest example of this once the aftermarket gets rolling even a little. The hybrid will be totally left behind