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Well if we are being really technical you can manually operate the tilt function lol! I don't disagree that extra stuff requires extra attention, thankfully stuff doesn't tend to break much if you know how to treat it well so even if it needs to be replaced once it should be fine from there. Most items don't need to be repaired multiple times unless you get into extreme mileage.
The issue is the wheel jams and it wont operate at all, it gets stuck in a specific position.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
I don't agree with this. There are something that more sense if they were manual. Not everything has to be electronic. IMO. The soft touch close only my 04 4R is pretty dumb...not offered on my new one. The light up running boards on my 04 are nice...would love to have them on my new one
It all depends on what you want. I like these little features. I like soft close doors, hidden cameras, power tilt wheels, massaging seats, etc. To me, thats part of having a luxury car. Its not like we have mainstream cars that have these sort of potentially expensive to repair features.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
i was just in alberta canada, and the rear camera on the cuv we had became completely filthy and useless in less than half an hour of driving. don't know about you but i don't want to find a car wash every hour. what i'd have to do is stop, get out, grab a handful of clean snow, and clean it off.
i'd much rather a concealed camera. chance of that motorized mechanism failing: very low.
Was the same situation for us in the Pocanos.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Wouldn’t a washer spray be so much better? I wonder who offers that tech
Range Rover does. That can fail too...those nozzles are hidden and pop out.
It all depends on what you want. I like these little features. I like soft close doors, hidden cameras, power tilt wheels, massaging seats, etc. To me, thats part of having a luxury car. Its not like we have mainstream cars that have these sort of potentially expensive to repair features.
You're right about soft close doors, but massaging seats are expanding beyond Luxury brands, you can get them on the front seats of the Ford Explorer, it's called Active Motion.
You actually are. The Lexus 330 and Lexus 400h lives side by side for 2 model years. The Lexus RX wasn't updated to add the 3.5 until two years after the 330
Originally Posted by Striker223
Dude. The chart is literally right there.
No offense, but, just for the record, Striker, Jill is a lady, not a "Dude".
If you want nice high tech stuff, theres always the possibility that it may break. These cars are designed for the people who buy them new, and most lease them for 3 years and replace them with a new one...so they (nor I) don't care about what happens a decade down the road.
Your LS430 and LX570 for instance both have numerous power operated things that are superfluous, and that fail when they get old. Most notably is the power tilt/telescoping wheel which is a very common failure. Would you rather have a crummy manual tilt wheel? I wouldnt. if you worry about failure, then everything should be manual, windows, mirrors, seats, etc.
I’m not worried about anything lol and hell no, the tilt wheel is a huge part of the Lexus experience always has been.
Things, motorized doodads don’t really fail in Lexus vehicles versus German cars, remember reliability is part of this equation as well. LS430 folding mirrors and power wheel, motorized vents still operate perfectly in mine at least. Everything motorized still works perfectly. LX is still like a brand new car it’s in such good shape.
Remember, this could not possibly matter less to you bc you trade up and are always in warranty. Once that pop out camera actuator goes on your Mercedes I’d guess at minimum $2,000 repair.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
i'd much rather a concealed camera. chance of that motorized mechanism failing: very low.
In a Volkswagen— are you kidding me?
Fair points though y’all brought up, I don’t ever deal with salty roads etc I live in the South.
All the car experts complaining about the camera... We were just fine without it not too long ago. What do you guys want to see with the camera, a child, a dog? I feel with all these sensors and advanced features, the camera is almost redundant. I personally would rather have a camera where I can use a wiper to wipe off when dirty than a hidden one that runs the chance that would be stuck and not deploy. If the RCTA and other sensors randomly work, then you bet your fancy camera would be stuck some day. Now if water gets into/around and frozen. What's going to happen?
All the car experts complaining about the camera... We were just fine without it not too long ago. What do you guys want to see with the camera, a child, a dog? I feel with all these sensors and advanced features, the camera is almost redundant. I personally would rather have a camera where I can use a wiper to wipe off when dirty than a hidden one that runs the chance that would be stuck and not deploy. If the RCTA and other sensors randomly work, then you bet your fancy camera would be stuck some day. Now if water gets into/around and frozen. What's going to happen?
This is my first backup camera, vehicle with cameras and I love it. My fault because of dark tint in my LS430 but I have backed into things and had to have the whole rear bumper replaced. With the parking sensors and multiple cameras in my new to us LX (especially backup) it’s great.
You're right about soft close doors, but massaging seats are expanding beyond Luxury brands, you can get them on the front seats of the Ford Explorer, it's called Active Motion.
The way they go about massaging is different, they really just vibrate...
And sure this stuff trickles down, but the point stands.
Originally Posted by AJT123
I’m not worried about anything lol and hell no, the tilt wheel is a huge part of the Lexus experience always has been.
Things, motorized doodads don’t really fail in Lexus vehicles versus German cars, remember reliability is part of this equation as well. LS430 folding mirrors and power wheel, motorized vents still operate perfectly in mine at least. Everything motorized still works perfectly. LX is still like a brand new car it’s in such good shape.
The power tilt telescoping wheel is absolutely a common issue in the LS430 and LS400, but thats the point, its a huge part of the experience and you take some unreliability when they get old in exchange for that.
Remember, this could not possibly matter less to you bc you trade up and are always in warranty. Once that pop out camera actuator goes on your Mercedes I’d guess at minimum $2,000 repair.
Most people who buy luxury cars do that, and a $2,000 repair...probably, but its a $125,000 car. A $2,000 repair is par for the course. Brakes are $2,000...
I agree that, particularly for Mercedes and BMW, there was a significant quality-drop, starting in the late 90s, in the solidness of the vehicles. You could (easily) tell it in sheet metal thickness, solidness of door closings (which, in the 1980s, were like tanks), hardware solidness....after the 90s, everything just had a lighter, thinner, flimsier feel to it. Consumer Reports noted a drop in reliability, particularly for Mercedes. And, with BMW, the Chris Bangle cars essentially traded new electronics, controversial styling, and lighter-grade engineering for the former solidness and driving-dynamics. With BMWs, you could also see the drop in the solid feel of the vehicle.
In some ways, though, VWs, on the lower end of the German scale, actually got better during that period, although somewhat hampered by unreliable electronics, cost-cutting on the Jetta and Golf, and customer-unfriendly American dealerships.
Some of the best Golfs ever were made during the period you are pointing out. I've heard the newer ones have mostly dropped all the egregious deliberate engineering failures and are getting better, they obviously started losing sales due to the poor reliability perception. Heard the Passats were typically less troublesome of the choices though depending on the engine you chose, closest thing they had to a camry wagon.
I would agree with what you said about German cars, with a note for the W210s as some of the exceptions for post '00, they aren't too bad and are pretty easy to work on, pretty reliable with some little electronic issues (dash displays etc).Mate has the v6 amg 320 its a very rare model/colour combo, great car and really nice to cruise in. But he's in Germany, so it's easy to get all sorts of rare parts for it when he keeps his eyes peeled on Ebay etc. I've heard the model after is about last you can do without specialised equipment if something bad goes wrong, so after that you're going to need a specialist or a big wallet to buy the interface equipment, tools etc.
And add a really annoying factor or two that really get on my goat about Germans (and other cars too); paint and interior plastic/finish/material quality.
Was once doing a photoshoot with a Wraith for an invention of mine, the Rolls dealer shared a building with their showroom plus one for BMW after the agreement. After doing photoshoot, I went to check out the BMWs. One of the young sales guys was all 'hey want to check out some of our cars' and bought me over to the launch M6 at the time (brand new model line then), sat me in it and started it up.
The plastic dash buttons were very disappointing. Sounded great, was comfy but damn... the interior quality for the buttons you push the most was poor. It gave me a really bad impression. My damn 90s camry has more solid, better feeling interface and buttons.
Later that year I sat in an RS6 Wagon, brand new, bit more than delivery kms. Same thing again, but worse. Normally I don't care about plastic buttons, but when I sit in a car with a 6 figure price tag, I do not expect them to cut corners on that.
Why did the RS6 feel like early 90s Hyundai plastic? It was absolutely disappointing.
This is before even looking at the engine bay, or even the paint. German paint, holy moly.
The last part of the puzzle is the paint. I guess the lease people are blind? I don't get it.
Mate of mine had lease Opel Insignia v6 TT diesel wagon, brand new. Orange peel paint.
Years later he gets the '19 550D wagon brand new, same thing again. I don't think you get this in USA but it's the M5 diesel equivalent wagon, quad turbo, 8 speed, top of the line, active headlights that point out signs/pedestrians/all that jazz. But orange peel paint?
Later, I am watching a carwow review (those guys need to put MPH or their time figures are damn useless) and lo and behold, one of the new BMW press cars has massive orangepeel paint.
Walking down the road, look at a parked one, orange peel paint. The more you look the more you will see it.
I have never seen that on a Toyota, let alone a Lexus. I've seen 90s clearcoat failures though in certain colours (here UV is 25% higher than the rest of the world) but never orange peel from factory even on the lower cost cars.
Why do the Germans skimp so much on interior plastic in the last 5-10+ years? Why do they do such crap, rushed paint jobs often? Why isn't it a robotic, timed and constant process like other manufacturers. Where is the variability coming from? Being cheap!
It just really throws you off as someone who would consider them otherwise, even on a lease I don't want some turd that's in the shop for 3 weeks at a time. If you can't get the basics right, the rest of the car is going to be a minefield and warning signs like that, show me the level of care or respect shown to a customer and how the engineering process is approached at that company. Sadly, I couldn't care less that it's 0.2s faster to 0-100 or has slightly more sporty driving feel etc, I simply do not support that type of engineering, creating more cars that are scrapped in short period of time.
You're right about soft close doors, but massaging seats are expanding beyond Luxury brands, you can get them on the front seats of the Ford Explorer, it's called Active Motion.
Yeah but it's not implemented well, a lot of cars have some supposedly luxury features that are just tacked on. I am of the camp that unless it's seamless and ALWAYS works don't bother, a motorized rear view camera is a great idea since if it opens/works it will always look the same image quality wise.
I never really count on my backup cams since they can be dirty, I would like how the S class doesn't have that risk for sure. As far as hitting things I literally never have no mater what it is I've driven and some stuff has 1/3 inch clearance on each side in and out of the shop for F450s etc. You get used to not relying on any assists to the point parking sensors feel like extreme cheating
Last edited by Striker223; Mar 4, 2022 at 12:22 AM.
Some of the best Golfs ever were made during the period you are pointing out. I've heard the newer ones have mostly dropped all the egregious deliberate engineering failures and are getting better, they obviously started losing sales due to the poor reliability perception. Heard the Passats were typically less troublesome of the choices though depending on the engine you chose, closest thing they had to a camry wagon.
I would agree with what you said about German cars, with a note for the W210s as some of the exceptions for post '00, they aren't too bad and are pretty easy to work on, pretty reliable with some little electronic issues (dash displays etc).Mate has the v6 amg 320 its a very rare model/colour combo, great car and really nice to cruise in. But he's in Germany, so it's easy to get all sorts of rare parts for it when he keeps his eyes peeled on Ebay etc. I've heard the model after is about last you can do without specialised equipment if something bad goes wrong, so after that you're going to need a specialist or a big wallet to buy the interface equipment, tools etc.
And add a really annoying factor or two that really get on my goat about Germans (and other cars too); paint and interior plastic/finish/material quality.
Was once doing a photoshoot with a Wraith for an invention of mine, the Rolls dealer shared a building with their showroom plus one for BMW after the agreement. After doing photoshoot, I went to check out the BMWs. One of the young sales guys was all 'hey want to check out some of our cars' and bought me over to the launch M6 at the time (brand new model line then), sat me in it and started it up.
The plastic dash buttons were very disappointing. Sounded great, was comfy but damn... the interior quality for the buttons you push the most was poor. It gave me a really bad impression. My damn 90s camry has more solid, better feeling interface and buttons.
Later that year I sat in an RS6 Wagon, brand new, bit more than delivery kms. Same thing again, but worse. Normally I don't care about plastic buttons, but when I sit in a car with a 6 figure price tag, I do not expect them to cut corners on that.
Why did the RS6 feel like early 90s Hyundai plastic? It was absolutely disappointing.
This is before even looking at the engine bay, or even the paint. German paint, holy moly.
The last part of the puzzle is the paint. I guess the lease people are blind? I don't get it.
Mate of mine had lease Opel Insignia v6 TT diesel wagon, brand new. Orange peel paint.
Years later he gets the '19 550D wagon brand new, same thing again. I don't think you get this in USA but it's the M5 diesel equivalent wagon, quad turbo, 8 speed, top of the line, active headlights that point out signs/pedestrians/all that jazz. But orange peel paint?
Later, I am watching a carwow review (those guys need to put MPH or their time figures are damn useless) and lo and behold, one of the new BMW press cars has massive orangepeel paint.
Walking down the road, look at a parked one, orange peel paint. The more you look the more you will see it.
I have never seen that on a Toyota, let alone a Lexus. I've seen 90s clearcoat failures though in certain colours (here UV is 25% higher than the rest of the world) but never orange peel from factory even on the lower cost cars.
Why do the Germans skimp so much on interior plastic in the last 5-10+ years? Why do they do such crap, rushed paint jobs often? Why isn't it a robotic, timed and constant process like other manufacturers. Where is the variability coming from? Being cheap!
It just really throws you off as someone who would consider them otherwise, even on a lease I don't want some turd that's in the shop for 3 weeks at a time. If you can't get the basics right, the rest of the car is going to be a minefield and warning signs like that, show me the level of care or respect shown to a customer and how the engineering process is approached at that company. Sadly, I couldn't care less that it's 0.2s faster to 0-100 or has slightly more sporty driving feel etc, I simply do not support that type of engineering, creating more cars that are scrapped in short period of time.
Issue is most people including my myself will overlook the inferior switchgear and paint for the feeling those cars provide. I have a German and a few Japanese flagships and have messed with nearly all of them to some extent and while yeah, the Lexus are in another tier of quality the German stuff just makes you feel superior.
They infuse the whole experience with a feeling of "I'm the best thing on the road" in a way the Lexus just can't. Very different vibes, the Lexus has a more calm and relaxing feel where you can appreciate detail a little more. The German car is an extension of yourself that you use to dominate the road
And add a really annoying factor or two that really get on my goat about Germans (and other cars too); paint and interior plastic/finish/material quality.
Was once doing a photoshoot with a Wraith for an invention of mine, the Rolls dealer shared a building with their showroom plus one for BMW after the agreement. After doing photoshoot, I went to check out the BMWs. One of the young sales guys was all 'hey want to check out some of our cars' and bought me over to the launch M6 at the time (brand new model line then), sat me in it and started it up.
The plastic dash buttons were very disappointing. Sounded great, was comfy but damn... the interior quality for the buttons you push the most was poor. It gave me a really bad impression. My damn 90s camry has more solid, better feeling interface and buttons.
Later that year I sat in an RS6 Wagon, brand new, bit more than delivery kms. Same thing again, but worse. Normally I don't care about plastic buttons, but when I sit in a car with a 6 figure price tag, I do not expect them to cut corners on that.
Why did the RS6 feel like early 90s Hyundai plastic? It was absolutely disappointing.
This is before even looking at the engine bay, or even the paint. German paint, holy moly.
I am extremely picky when it comes to those sort of quality issues, and I have no idea what you're talking about as pertains to modern German luxury cars. I have spent a lot of time in high end BMWs and Audis and obviously I now have a S Class Mercedes, and the switchgear in all of them is excellent and easily surpasses any switchgear that was ever on any Lexus Ive had which includes 4 LS Sedans. Simply...none of that is true, at least any longer.
The last part of the puzzle is the paint. I guess the lease people are blind? I don't get it.
Mate of mine had lease Opel Insignia v6 TT diesel wagon, brand new. Orange peel paint.
Years later he gets the '19 550D wagon brand new, same thing again. I don't think you get this in USA but it's the M5 diesel equivalent wagon, quad turbo, 8 speed, top of the line, active headlights that point out signs/pedestrians/all that jazz. But orange peel paint?
Later, I am watching a carwow review (those guys need to put MPH or their time figures are damn useless) and lo and behold, one of the new BMW press cars has massive orangepeel paint.
Walking down the road, look at a parked one, orange peel paint. The more you look the more you will see it.
I have never seen that on a Toyota, let alone a Lexus. I've seen 90s clearcoat failures though in certain colours (here UV is 25% higher than the rest of the world) but never orange peel from factory even on the lower cost cars.
I have noted that the paint finish on my Mercedes is not as nice as the paint finishes I was used to with Lexus, but BMW and Audi are easily the peer of Lexus today, at least the high end cars. All the 750s and X7s and A8s etc that I looked at have beautiful largely orange peel free paint.
Even within Lexus the LS and LC and LX have much better paint finishes than the cheaper cars who aren't nearly as well done.
And as Striker said, the German cars are just on another planet from Lexus when it comes to feel and drive quality and performance and technology...and yes build quality and comfort too.
What do you guys want to see with the camera, a child, a dog? I feel with all these sensors and advanced features, the camera is almost redundant. I personally would rather have a camera where I can use a wiper to wipe off when dirty than a hidden one that runs the chance that would be stuck and not deploy. If the RCTA and other sensors randomly work, then you bet your fancy camera would be stuck some day. 
