You have to remove the seat to get to the battery I believe. Plus the battery is proprietary or a unique design. That is not a good thing to want

 

Needlessly complex.

 

I think this nails it. If I hadn't seen this post, I was going to type something like it.

To me, the Germans' passion is for machinery and engineering comes through in the products. The fact that I didn't mention reliability or serviceabililty as a priority also does. They're made to be ergonomic, functional helpers to drivers going seriously fast, and aesthetically pleasing in a tool-for-the-purpose sort of way.

Japanese companies aren't all alike; Soichiro Honda's little company had a lot of Porsche/old BMW soul in it. But Toyota didn't start out as a fast-car company. It started out making sewing machines and other mechanical goods where the priority was that they didn't break. As they moved into carmaking, they did what a consumer-minded manufacturing company does in any industry: studied the competition, studied the customers, focus-grouped them, studied their needs and wants, and met/anticipated them in their designs. It's no coincidence the Japanese were first with stuff like cupholders where the Germans dragged their heels. It's also no coincidence the Japanese built products like the LS400 with trail-blazing quality and value but styling shamelessly derivative of Mercedes-Benz; that's what their research said would be most certain to meet luxury sedan biuyers' expectations.

I still see this today in my new ES, in obvious and subtle ways. Two examples; the wood trim and the ambient lighting. The wood trim is quality, but painted matte black so it's so unremarkable in appearance it might as well be plastic or entirely absent. Why? Because that's what the Germans did to their wood trim last year, and Toyota was not going to be caught offering obsolete fashion. Of course it was equally inane when the Germans did it, but the Germans did it first.

The ES's ambient lighting is so faint, I took the car out to a pitch black field at night just to see it. I still could just barely confirm it was there at all. Why bother? You could almost see the acrimony in the commiitee meeting; the box had to be checked because other luxury cars had it, but it could not be bright enough to create risk by distracting anybody. Their heart wasn't in it, and it looks like it. The motivating impulse that led to its creation by others simply isn't there.

Mind you, I'm not knocking Toyota by saying this. I have two cars in my garage, a Toyota and a Toyota. I'm just saying their amazing reliability happens for a deep-seated reason, and it comes at some aesthetic and functional cost. Buy Japanese, lease German. I happen to be the type who buys.

 

I don't know about ambient lighting in the ES, but BMW used to be absolutely genius when it came to ambient lighting, before the irritating bright multicolored lighting became a fad. They have very faint ambient light into door pockets, and overhead LEDs that point into the glovebox. Just enough subtle light for you to be able to see what you're reaching for, instead of the stupid distracting strip club lighting.

 

The Japanese have tech that is on par with the Germans and in some places exceeds it. It goes back and forth you just don't always see the Toyota tech on their cars. . Some of those older MB engines with their SOHC engines were not as complex as Toyota with their DOHC timing belted stuff. Toyota used double row timing chains in some cases as well. The hidden starter motor under the intake of the UZ is all about reliability. Toyota even added a auto-key start system for their keyed V8s to improve starter reliability. Toyota even added a prevention system on some of their V8s that will not restart the starter motor because the motors were so quiet. My 4Runner cannot re-engage the starter once started and cuts on the radio if you try a second time.

Lexus GX/LX... full time 4WD with a centre lock, adaptive variable suspension using a hydraulic set up, rear air springs...and KDSS shock absorbers that use a fluid linked disconnect. New KDSS is now electric which replaces the hydraulic fluids. Pretty complicated and over engineered stuff.

Add in stuff like 28 HVAC vents for the Land Cruiser and LX....dual front and rear AC compressors...one just need to look at where Toyota over engineers. Little details like my 4Runner rear soft touch close is not needed but a nice touch.

My door courtesy lights have a cut off that only allow the individual door to light up when you open the door....depends on what Toyota you get but some of the cheaper American designs like the Tundra or Sequoia will light up all doors regardless if they are opened or not.

Toyota puts batteries in the rear too...so its a moot point to say Mercedes is over engineered because of this. I think Toyota puts their battery for the LS dead centre in the rear truck vs off to the side like some of the Germans

I would say the Lexus LS500 lantern door lights are quite tasteful in their design. Not the same as the German way of the doing it, but I think the new NX does the same thing as the germans.


Something I really dislike about how Mercedes does the interiors, they don't do side window defoggers as tasteful as others. Mercedes S-Class here is just not as well done

 

Can you name a few? I feel like German's tech is years/decades ahead of Japan's. They just need to make sure they're more reliable. I'm sure the Japanese could do it, but they are not there in the cars yet.

 

What tech does the German have that the Japan manufactures lack? Fuel cells, hydrogen engines, plug in hybrid, hybrids…engine tech? Turbos…engines with more electric parts? Fancy electronic modulated suspensions? Super high tech headlights….Japan has em too….cameras for mirrors…Japan has them. Fancy exploding hood struts?


All of the above are part of the Japan brands…

is a 48V engine really that superior? NO…a full hybrid is superior….Toyota completely dominates hybrid brand equity…now we are seeing Toyota enter plug in hybrid models where the Germans brands failed miserably

I think Honda is level 3 autonomous in Japan. Maybe Toyota too but I have lost interest in that. Right on par with the Germans.

Germans excel at adding new tech sooner to their cars…doesn’t mean the Japanese don’t have them…have the patents or design elements ready to go.

Going back to the original post…how Mercedes labels the ground for the negative and the over-engineering So does Toyota with their LS500….the say exactly where to place the negative for jump start….Toyota also offers the battery + up front even though the battery is located out back

 

So does Lexus, they all bleed in and out and well as only turn on certain lights depending on doors open, and solar sensor info. It's actually very impressive just how varied and subtle the overall effect is and is something I noticed very early on in the 430 and the 460 continued it but not as well. Less points of lighting and less overall effects, the Audi just has light strips that can thankfully be turned off.

 

If you mean the S Class, you don't have to remove a seat. My 2015 S550 includes the Auxiliary battery, and you get to both batteries from the trunk. The primary battery by removing the trunk flooring pad and lower trunk liner, and the auxiliary battery by removing the right side trunk lining.

 

That's because the S class has A pillar stereo sound speakers vs the LS not using that design. The LS "moto-pod" instrument cluster on the driver's side takes up a lot of space, so you can't have a defrost vent there, hence the need to put vents on the A pillar. The S class picture you have there, is actually sleeker and more Bauhaus vs the LS which seems layered with a bunch of elements all meeting up in a messy end.

 

I'm not knowledgeable enough to debate on engines, but as a consumer, while not being a pro German, I have to admit that German has a lot of advanced useful techs in their cars.

 

Love the ambient lighting in my LS430, so classy. It's the exact same in my LX, color and layout/function.

About the battery, on the Enclave in my family there is a dedicated negative "ground" spot just for cables when jumping it off, is that what we are talking about? I have used it before, very convenient.

SW, I also wouldn't worry about using your car as a jump vehicle in a pinch, just me though.

 

You can do both. Lexus used to do the speaker in the corner of the door as well has the side defogger. Look up LS400 and you'll see. Mercedes just cost cuts with no side window defogger.

 

Correct, you don't have to remove the seat, theres a panel in the back of the trunk you remove.

Yep, I don't know why every carmaker doesn't provide such a spot.

I'm not, but if another car is there to use, I'll use that. I would have done the same with the LS.

Its not a cost cutting thing, its a design philosophy thing, The side window defoggers on the S Class work just as well as those on the LS. The other benefit is when the door on the S Class gets rained on, rain doesn't go into the vent like it does on the LS. One way isn't better or worse than the other way.

 

Except the S class has never used the side window defogger design that the LS uses, so it's not cost cutting - they weren't needed. Go and look at pictures of any S class interior right up to the W223. You won't be seeing side window defoggers like the LS because the engineers were able to figure out airflow for the side windows with the dash vents.

It's cost cutting when the S class would have had them and then they were removed - but if they were never there, it's not cost cutting.