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I like how the battery for a Porsche is in the front trunk, electrically operated by the way. Makes for quite an experience when your battery is dead. A simple pull string worked great for decades but the Germans had to "improve" it.
Now I get to jack car up, remove front wheel, remove fender liner, then access hidden pull string or. find a doner 12V source to jump at the footwell fuse box.
Don't get me started on BMW. The panels are well engineered for access and service (really mass production ease) but the BMW "brain" is overly complicated. Every little thing has a sensor on it. Shoot even to change the battery on a BMW you need to code it to the car <smh>
About a year ago, I power washed the underside of my E70 X5, and the next day I was presented with automatic parking brake module failure, it would not disengage and the car was stuck in Park. I don't know if it was just a coincidence that it happened right after the wash, but it turns out there is a cable inside a bottom trunk compartment that manually disengages the parking brake. I had to pull it with a lot of force to get it disengaged. Replacement cost me $1,500 with labor.
Coincidentally, just a few days after that, I took my wifes F96 X6M to a carwash, and was presented with the same failure. Only difference, the new car does not have the manual release cable. It was a complete nightmare, the car was stuck in the middle of the carwash shop, blocking the rest of the customers. I called the tow truck, and after waiting for about 3 hours it finally disengaged by itself. I guess these modules are not water proof, and when water gets into them, something shorts out. It has never happened again on my wife's car, so I haven't done anything with it.
Also, I remember when hurricane Sandy hit, all the cars in my neighborhood were flooded, and those with electronic shifters could not be shifted into neutral. Tow truck operators had to forcefully drag these cars from where ever they were stuck. I couldn't open the trunk on my E92 335 to get my belongings out of it, so I used a huge crowbar to bend the trunk lip and pull my stuff out.
It boggles my mind how they don't provide obvious overrides for stuff like this. I recall a story of someone dying in their burning car (Corvette?) because they didn't know how to manually open the doors, and the handles were electronic.
What makes German auto engineering different than Asian or American engineering? Uhm... some of them are great while some are for show and others half work or don't work. Seriously though new German cars packed with a lot of nice (safety) features but they don't always work. And when they don't, they scare the **** out of you.
We've discussed this a little in some other threads, but I had an experience today that really made this point well.
As you know I have owned many Asian cars (primarily Japanese Toyota and Lexus cars, but I did also have a Korean Kia) and American cars (Ford, GM and Chrysler), but my 2020 S560 is my first German car. The difference in philosophy is really interesting, Asian and American are typically very similar.
My wife's family was in town until today, they have a 2017 Honda Odyssey. After they were all packed up they found that it wouldn't start. Battery was totally dead. I have a ultracapacitor jump starter, but other than that I don't have any jumper cables or jump box or anything like that.
Looking at the engine compartments for the three vehicles here, the thought that went into how one goes about jump starting each car is a really good barometer of the difference.
The Honda you just have regular battery terminals, and you have to struggle to find a neutral ground, none is labeled or straightforward, which is common with Asian and American cars in my experience. We screwed around with the Ultracapacitor and it wouldn't work, which I chocked up to it being faulty. So, we had to get in the Mercedes and go buy jumper cables. Hooked the Odyssey up to the Pacifica (Ain't jumping a car off the Mercedes) and, no go. Figured out, it was a grounding issue, and we tried another screw and it fired up. But, that lack of a well labeled neutral ground cost us over an hour and a trip to an auto parts store. Other issue was big terminals and the cable clamps not hooking on well, the Pacifica was better in this regard as it has a little post off the positive terminal for that, and you had a nice neutral ground but there was no bright label (it is labeled, just doesnt jump out at you). On the Odyssey clamps popping off leads to danger which leads to people getting shocked, and the lack of an easy to find neutral ground leads to people hooking the negative clamp to the negative terminal of the dead battery which risks frying the electrical system. These issues were thought through in the Pacifica and moreso on the Mercedes.
When you look at the Mercedes, theres a red slding door with a positive logo that reveals a simple flat metal tag the jumper cable perfectly clips onto. Then there is a negative logo, and removal of that panel reveals a big, beautiful neutral ground to clamp on to. Simple, well laid out, foolproof, safe. Why don't Honda and Lexus/Toyota lay it out this way? They certainly can...but its a little mechanical detail thing that shows you that Mercedes gives these things a little additional thought.
Is Chrysler unique among other American cars in this way? I know none of my Lexus/Toyota cars ever were, you always had to deal with the terminal and finding a ground in them too. I wonder if this is a result of Chrysler's time spent partnering with Mercedes or if Fords etc are laid out this well now too?
Mercedes positive jump point:
Mercedes neutral ground:
Chrysler positive jump point:
Chrysler neutral ground:
Kind of interesting, because (maybe just in my mind), I've always thought of the Japanese to be more straightforward and user friendly in their craftsmanship, with Germans tending to be more "over-engineered" (sometimes for the better, sometimes not). Maybe a bad example, but think cup holders - the Japanese started using this simple feature in a more widespread fashion; Germans (and other Euro brands) had these flimsy, retract-out-of-the-dash worthless cupholders, which seemed to be added begrudgingly.
Even now - BMW has all these features and options in their cars that are available that need to be "coded" to enable - instead of just the ability to change in a menu. I'd love to have my car automatically unlock when I put it in park, but I just don't want to order a cable, hook up to a laptop, and then decipher all the codes. I can enable auto lock in iDrive, but not auto unlock - why so complicated?
Interesting. I’d rather have it in the trunk, than under a seat
It is in the trunk, its just behind the back wall of the trunk behind the rear seat.
Originally Posted by tex2670
Kind of interesting, because (maybe just in my mind), I've always thought of the Japanese to be more straightforward and user friendly in their craftsmanship, with Germans tending to be more "over-engineered" (sometimes for the better, sometimes not). Maybe a bad example, but think cup holders - the Japanese started using this simple feature in a more widespread fashion; Germans (and other Euro brands) had these flimsy, retract-out-of-the-dash worthless cupholders, which seemed to be added begrudgingly.
That was always my viewpoint too, but in this case thats definitely not the case
In many german cars the battery is hidden in a compartment in the trunk, so they provide separate terminals. There are various small but clever things that are present in just about every make, and then every make has their share of annoyances.
I totally agree here.
For example, Toyota/Lexus has ridiculously inaccessible locations for their oil filters crawling underneath the vehicle, while BMW has superb location for their oil filters in the photo below - but then Toyota/Lexus will hit BMW back in other ways.
Strange though.
My wall charger won't charge my 12V 3ES battery if the wall charger alligator clips are connected to the terminals of the chassis.
To charge my 12V battery, I must remove the terminals from the battery, and then connect the alligator clips directly to the positive and negative terminals of the battery.
Kind of interesting, because (maybe just in my mind), I've always thought of the Japanese to be more straightforward and user friendly in their craftsmanship, with Germans tending to be more "over-engineered" (sometimes for the better, sometimes not). Maybe a bad example, but think cup holders - the Japanese started using this simple feature in a more widespread fashion; Germans (and other Euro brands) had these flimsy, retract-out-of-the-dash worthless cupholders, which seemed to be added begrudgingly.
Even now - BMW has all these features and options in their cars that are available that need to be "coded" to enable - instead of just the ability to change in a menu. I'd love to have my car automatically unlock when I put it in park, but I just don't want to order a cable, hook up to a laptop, and then decipher all the codes. I can enable auto lock in iDrive, but not auto unlock - why so complicated?
I too think they over engineer a lot. Most are great though but some are not really practical or make sense. For instance the two mirrors are not symmetrical. They claim this is for better view from driver's seat. On top of it, they also don't fold the same amount for no reason. For me, if this is true, I would immediately feel the difference when sitting in the driver's seat for the first time. I feel no difference, only the ugliness. I at first thought one didn't fold in all the way and attempted to push On the other hand, they have the display angled towards the driver. This is really brilliant and I feel so distanced when I drive something else, like a Lexus. While there are many to praise about, certain things they chose not to "think about or over think". When a door is opened on a Lexus, we would get a notification. On BMW, even when one breaks in, you have no idea that it happened. But you can view the surrounding and they give you you remote start for free
You should be able to set (check the box) to "Unlock at end of trip". It will unlock when you stop and turn off the engine. I personally don't see why one would want to do this for safety reason. Why would one want have door unlocked unless s/he does a lot of passenger picking up.
IMO the best part of all is BMW lets you modify things through coding.
Varies and some maintenance areas are easier-worse across them. One of the gripes is that Toyota placed the starter in the #UZ engines in the V under the intake plenum. Changing plugs in some cars though thankfully comes at 80-120K miles but getting to some involves removing what seems like the top part of the engine in the FWD layout. This can be "amusing" up against a firewall too. Generally wrenching on older Toyota product is fairly straight forward and of simple to moderate levels.
The new cars... Saw one repair video of an Audi, can't recall the specific repair that involved removal of the front bumper, headlights, radiator support, radiator and a whole bunch of other items... Made me thankful that replacing the starter or alternator in the Corolla commuter is a 15-20 minute task. No SST's or extensive tools necessary.
I think each of the automakers are an embodiment of the culture of their home country.
German automakers excel in engineering and perfection which a lot of times over complicates even the simplest of features. The constant drive to be the best and bring to market new technology compromises long term reliability.
Japanese culture is very conservative. Being consistent and reliable is usually more important than showing off or bringing something new to market.
American automakers have great talent but lack the discipline to be the best.
If you look back on the full ICE era, there is no doubt it has been dominated by the Germans since post WWII.
Even all the British makes - RR, Bentley, Aston Martin - are all running German hardware.
I've owned German cars(MB, Porsche, BMW) and I work on German industrial controls & electronics on a regular basis. They BOTH have one thing in common- NEEDLESSLY OVER ENGINEERED!!! haha
Lots of extra proprietary complexity by design that has no added value...
Last edited by Margate330; Feb 22, 2022 at 10:20 PM.
I think each of the automakers are an embodiment of the culture of their home country.
German automakers excel in engineering and perfection which a lot of times over complicates even the simplest of features. The constant drive to be the best and bring to market new technology compromises long term reliability.
Japanese culture is very conservative. Being consistent and reliable is usually more important than showing off or bringing something new to market.
American automakers have great talent but lack the discipline to be the best.
If you look back on the full ICE era, there is no doubt it has been dominated by the Germans since post WWII.
Even all the British makes - RR, Bentley, Aston Martin - are all running German hardware.
Perfection can mean a lot of things. Overcomplicating things is.. a brute force approach. I certainly wouldn't say that ze german manufacturers excel in perfection
Perfection can mean a lot of things. Overcomplicating things is.. a brute force approach. I certainly wouldn't say that ze german manufacturers excel in perfection
Meaning providing the best performance, tech and luxury features.
Nobody comes close to the Germans - they offer the best performance and luxury cars by far.
If you buy a base Eclass or 3series without advanced tech options- it will run for hundreds of thousands of miles.
My neighbor has old E46 sedan 325i with 200k.
Eclass are used as cabs in Germany. Its just here we get fully loaded ones.
I do agree German reliability doesn’t compare to Toyota. But Toyota is the only Japanese company with stellar long term reliability. Honda, Nissan and Mazda are hit or miss.
I do agree German reliability doesn’t compare to Toyota. But Toyota is the only Japanese company with stellar long term reliability. Honda, Nissan and Mazda are hit or miss.
I think the difference in engineering often comes as the result of engineers pay. From what I heard, engineers working for US automakers brought home pathetic compensations - around 60-80k. This is far less than their union factory workers, especially when they milk all the overtime, not to mention the vast responsibility that engineers have, vs factory workers mindlessly working the assembly line.
I find the same is often true to a lot of US manufacturing, not just auto makers. At a lot of factories people working at engineering departments get overworked, while making measly salaries. At the same time, they are forced to design products that involve as little as possible manual labor, because the union pay of the factory workers is a huge expense. I purchase a lot of commercial building systems, and whenever the client specifies German products, they are infinitely better quality than half assed American counterparts.
Had to take my wheel off today and rebalance it since I threw my DR balance weights off, the 460 has an extremely obvious lift point with a pad and everything just like a German.
Credit actually goes to my wife who noticed they were missing and took the rim off and did it for me when she went on an errand today.
Last edited by Striker223; Feb 23, 2022 at 04:30 PM.
On the other hand, they have the display angled towards the driver. This is really brilliant and I feel so distanced when I drive something else, like a Lexus. While there are many to praise about, certain things they chose not to "think about or over think". When a door is opened on a Lexus, we would get a notification. On BMW, even when one breaks in, you have no idea that it happened. But you can view the surrounding and they give you you remote start for free 
