Pretty much. Toyoda can beg the Japanese government all he wants, but they aren't going to save him when he can't sell ICE anywhere else on the planet. It's either adapt to change or fall into irrelevance like Sony.

This is literally replaying like the transition to smartphones.

 

toyota rose to prominence as gm/ford/chrysler and others were bloated, lazy, and were making worse and worse products. that combined with rising oil prices and toyota/honda's dedication to quality meant a steady rise to major prominence and gold plated reputations for decades.

and over those decades, they have developed a process for evolving their drivetrains, seemingly immune to competition.

but, times change. toyota, still making high quality automobiles, has become bloated, lazy, and relying largely on past innovations while lobbying to stop the 'future'.

it seems to me that 4 year old engine map might as well be the map of the moon (not terribly relevant).

the map says 9 engines and 17 variations... holy crap, anyone would think countries and continents have said no more ice cars by 2030 or 2035. oh wait...

i don't see a need for a ttv8 when huge power is now most easily achieved with an EV drivetrain.

i see toyota squeezed to compromise in the development of ice, hybrid, hydrogen and EV platforms and the short straw must go to ice because govts will pressure, regulate and tax carbon emissions more and more.

vw is off the races with EVs. gm has the bolt (with problematic LG chem battery pack, which will get solved), and others coming, ford with mach-e but seriously capped by debt, stellantis is basically screwed, and of course we have tesla, rivian, lucid, and a 100 chinese ev companes, most of which won't survive.

toyota will need to go heavier with hybrids, and may even need to do turbo hybrids to bring power, fuel economy, and low emissions, and they must accelerate their ev program. no doubt they know all this, but it's hard to get an ocean liner to change directions.

it will be interesting to see if toyota can protect its marketshare. while it will continue to do well for years, i don't believe it can preserve its position in time, short of some dramatic moves like a (very expensive) acquisition.

 

I'm with Toyota on this one. Part of the problem IS the change. The rush to ban ICEs is nothing short of ludicrous....they are being blamed for the world's problems.

 

Well, they can say it's unfair and make excuses while their competitors happily eat into their marketshare, or they can adapt brilliantly like when they made the Prius in the 90s. Unfortunately we're witnessing more of the former than the latter.

Quote:

The Beginning of the Hybrid Revolution

From being so angry at being barred from a foreign effort to make the most efficient vehicles sold at the time that they created the daddy of all hybrids in response, to now begging their own government to not force them to make more green vehicles... how Toyota has changed.

 

This is all about pride. Toyota wants to be seen as the technology leader if they go all in on BEVs that will make them a follower to Tesla and China's rapid adoption of EVs. So instead of doing the right thing they are going to pursue the fools gold promise of hydrogen, keep promising solid state batteries and continue with their aging hybrid platform.

 

And yet Toyota is the only one without reliability issues, spontaneous battery combustion, diesel scandals, etc. With the current car shortages, Toyotas are by far the most desirable automobiles on the used market due to their solid reliability. They are not lazy, they are pragmatic and steady.

 

If I was in his shoes, I'd let the government enforce whatever emissions nonsense they desire, and let these millions of jobs be lost. Sit back and watch the economy collapse, lol.

 

What Toyoda is saying is that a lot of their Japanese production goes to countries that do not have these lofty EV goals so it would not make sense for them to produce those cars in Japan anymore.

EV adoption is poor though, so government is right in doing something, otherwise a lot of these manufacturers do not have a reason to invest in EVs anytime soon.

As Toyota itself, right now all of that is suiting them very well, due to these same laws in Europe, based on co2 taxing, they never had larger market share in history of company.

So yes, that is because of all of those new engines they added - Yaris is selling like hotcakes for very high price in Europe right now, a lot due to new 1.5l hybrid engibe grayed out on that list.

 

Don't forget those millions of Toyota's that have engines that needs to be replaced unlike Hyundai

Or how about Mercedes-Benz and their newly found quality problems with their V8s https://www.carmag.co.za/news/rumour...quality-issue/

 

Like the millions of fuel pumps Toyota had to recall and replace in the last year because they would sporadically shut off the engine while driving? Not the strongest argument for ICE.

Either way, this idea that Toyota is only using old tech because they value "reliability" is complete bunk. Toyota churned out the Prius and hybrid V8 in the LS600H which were ground-breaking powertrains at the time and also rock-solid to boot. It's merely a question of if they want to put in the time and effort into EV's or rest on their laurels like the Detroit brands they surpassed 40 years ago.

 

Due to all the emissions with modern ICE engines you need to choose between high performance and horrible reliability, or lackluster performance and decent reliability. It is becoming nearly impossible to build a high performance reliable engine anymore. The new M4 for instance overheats very quickly under spirited driving.

ICE is not going anywhere, most cars are just going to be 3-4 pot boring appliances, for performance it's going to be all EV. Toyota never cared much for the performance market anyway.

 

ICE is going away and quickly. By 2030 no one will want a petrol engine outside of specialty and classic cars.

 

Not in NYC - unless there is a miracle in battery charging.
Most ppl park outside and have no access to a garage. These are not only poor folks living in projects but wealthy ppl on UWS and UES.
Most Coop buildings dont gave garages that can fit all the cars.

The boroughs are even worse - have u been to Flushing lol

EVs are here to stay but in many markets there will still be tremendous demand for ICE and hybrid vehicles not dependent on charging.

 

Good thread CL!

Although in part divergent, I agree with both Bit's and Och's comments above. Yes, Toyota is a massive company, slow to change directions. But too, when they do bring an EV to market, they will do it right!

Sure, Toyota has made missteps along the course of their evolution, but so too has every other automaker...they can't all be gems! But, until I see equivalent levels of reliability from the competition, I'm anxiously waiting for a Toyota EV. In the mean time, I'll be fine with Toyota's ICE's and hybrid offerings.

 

Irrelevant, IMO. The Prius had a small ICE, and did not require plug-in recharging (which a lot of people don't have)....although plug-in versions (still wth ICEs) were later introduced.