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Nobody is going to pay $20K extra for an high level ES. Just suggesting so prices some of you like the design enough that the ES could be a replacement for a GS priced model.
The front windshield does not say "Acoustic Laminated" like the Avalon or Canadian made RX.
Just because the windshield doesn't say acoustic on it doesn't mean it isn't acoustic. My LS460 has an acoustic windshield and the windshield doesn't have any marking that its acoustic.
Just because the windshield doesn't say acoustic on it doesn't mean it isn't acoustic. My LS460 has an acoustic windshield and the windshield doesn't have any marking that its acoustic.
If you kick around in the Toyota press room. The ES luxury package has acoustic side glass. Not the base. Until 2014, all Lexus models has acoustic windshields except the GX and LX. No cars in the Lexus lineup had acousitc side glass, every car apparently had laminated side windows.
Same Toyota pressroom, evey Toyota Avalon has acoustic front sides and acoustic windshield
Didn’t say is was not acoustic. Just said it didn’t say acoustic. Lamisafe or lamipane does not say anything about being acoustic.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; Sep 11, 2018 at 05:49 PM.
Interior wise ES won't be able to touch base A6 in materials and technology. The only solution I can think of that Lexus could have implemented for ES to try to fight the A6 is to design the interior for some Ultra Luxury package that would kick the price up $20K as intended and then dumb down the interior for the rest of the offering by taking away the technology and quality materials. New ES interior is the biggest interior letdown since previous gen RX. Current ES has more dynamic interior when it comes to layout, upcoming UX has more interesting layout as well although upcoming ES looks good in luxury package with purplish brown dash and yellow wood.
ES Ultra Luxury with flexen semi-aniline leather and matte bamboo is $10k cheaper than base A6, and fully equipped A6 goes to $80k vs $55k.
Base A6 also gets smaller nav and lot less features... you pay for options in A6, including safety ones.
A6 is certainly class above, especially with quattro and 3.0 TFSI engine, I would say that is bigger advantage than interior since you got to pay for all the cool things and some basic ones.
When ES AWD comes soon, difference will become smaller... no wonder ES sells so good, value quotient is off the charts.
ES Ultra Luxury with flexen semi-aniline leather and matte bamboo is $10k cheaper than base A6, and fully equipped A6 goes to $80k vs $55k.
Base A6 also gets smaller nav and lot less features... you pay for options in A6, including safety ones.
A6 is certainly class above, especially with quattro and 3.0 TFSI engine, I would say that is bigger advantage than interior since you got to pay for all the cool things and some basic ones.
When ES AWD comes soon, difference will become smaller... no wonder ES sells so good, value quotient is off the charts.
Unless your local Audi dealer is marking up their inventory by $10k plus for a model that hasn’t seen a redesign since 2012, I’ve never seen a top spec prestige A6 3.0T at or around $80k. The vast majority of A6’s are premium plus trim, most V8 twin turbo S6’s I’ve seen are in the low-mid $80k’s. I can’t imagine anyone willing to pay $80k for a loaded A6 3.0T when they can pickup a well optioned A7 3.0T or base A8 for $3k-5k grand more.
The interior of the current A6 is nice, but they still don’t offer stitched dash boards. I would place it in last place compared to all the current German midsize sedans. I would say the big advantages with the A6 is its effortless acceleration and it’s sturdy build quality and over the top B&O sound system.
I would say the vast majority of ES’s sell for just under $50k. Over $50k and the value gets harder to justify for most consumers.
Saw the ES (and the UX) last night at my dealer for a one-day preview showing and overall I have mixed feelings. It's an overall slight improvement over the past ES but not a big leap like the Germans (or Koreans) are doing. Steering and control stalks all feel good, taken from the LS, glove box door too was surprisingly softly padded while the leather was buttery soft. Nice detailing and pretty good material/quality on the door panel, let down by the textured shiny black hard plastic window cover switch (why Lexus!! ) and similar material in the center console. Price tag also jumped about 5K in Canada for a loaded ES, shown w/Ultra Luxury Package $61K Cdn. Key differences over the outgoing model for us in Canada are Apple Car Play, HUD, and Enform.
Saw the ES (and the UX) last night at my dealer for a one-day preview showing and overall I have mixed feelings. It's an overall slight improvement over the past ES but not a big leap like the Germans (or Koreans) are doing. Steering and control stalks all feel good, taken from the LS, glove box door too was surprisingly softly padded while the leather was buttery soft. Nice detailing and pretty good material/quality on the door panel, let down by the textured shiny black hard plastic window cover switch (why Lexus!! ) and similar material in the center console. Price tag also jumped about 5K in Canada for a loaded ES, shown w/Ultra Luxury Package $61K Cdn. Key differences over the outgoing model for us in Canada are Apple Car Play, HUD, and Enform.
Good write up. +1
I second your opinion on how its not a big leap like the Germans or Koreans. I wish the new Lexus ES leap huge gains over the outgoing ES. The new Lexus ES is definitely better than the outgoing one but I personally feel like this new Lexus ES feels sort-of like a refresh almost... I say that because the new Lexus ES, while had new tech, it was MAJOR tech advances fit for a new model. Like you said, major features that is highlighted are HUD, Apple Car Play, Amazon Alexa, and bigger screen. Not revolutionary.
The ES does not need to re-invent itself or make a major leap. It already has a winning formula. Other brands (Germans/Koreans/Americans) do not have the same bragging rights, so they must go more crazy on redesigns. For the new ES to get an all-new body, all-new interior, and an upgraded V6 is about as drastic as it's going to get or needs to get. When ES sales languish, I'll be the first to say they need to do something more revolutionary.
The ES does not need to re-invent itself or make a major leap. It already has a winning formula. Other brands (Germans/Koreans/Americans) do not have the same bragging rights, so they must go more crazy on redesigns. For the new ES to get an all-new body, all-new interior, and an upgraded V6 is about as drastic as it's going to get or needs to get. When ES sales languish, I'll be the first to say they need to do something more revolutionary.
Good reasoning. +1
Its definitely possible Toyota didn't do much to the Lexus ES because its already a best seller. Its not surprising they kept it strictly vanilla in order to play it is safe. But - then again - Lexus (Toyota) has always played it safe with features and design. Toyota is never one to put outrageous features onto a car due to fear of harming their reliability reputation.
Nobody is going to pay $20K extra for an high level ES. Just suggesting so prices some of you like the design enough that the ES could be a replacement for a GS priced model.
Yeah all 3 people would have bought it
In Europe new ES is positioned as GS replacement (don't know why) and it will try to take away the sales of base trim 5 series and A6. Problem is new A6 has really stepped up the game even in base trim unlike previous gen so ES will not stand a chance.
ES Ultra Luxury with flexen semi-aniline leather and matte bamboo is $10k cheaper than base A6, and fully equipped A6 goes to $80k vs $55k.
Base A6 also gets smaller nav and lot less features... you pay for options in A6, including safety ones.
A6 is certainly class above, especially with quattro and 3.0 TFSI engine, I would say that is bigger advantage than interior since you got to pay for all the cool things and some basic ones.
When ES AWD comes soon, difference will become smaller... no wonder ES sells so good, value quotient is off the charts.
I'm the first one to give Audi crap for it's packaging since most of the A6es overseas are 2.0TDI with basic dual zone air conditioning, cloth manual seats, 16' rims etc. you know how it goes. You can still see pre-facelift A6 with halogen projectors driving around. That's not a luxury car that's a badge shopping to rub it in your neighbor's face unless you are German. But the new A6/A7 combo is three steps ahead from the previous one. I have to say it has caught me by surprise, even in base trim it's a contemporary interior and technology that Lexus doesn't even have in LS let alone ES. I have to say good luck to Lexus in Europe for trying to push ES as A6 alternative, from outside it really is especially in F-sport trim, from inside it is very obvious it's an A4 alternative.
I second your opinion on how its not a big leap like the Germans or Koreans. I wish the new Lexus ES leap huge gains over the outgoing ES. The new Lexus ES is definitely better than the outgoing one but I personally feel like this new Lexus ES feels sort-of like a refresh almost... I say that because the new Lexus ES, while had new tech, it was MAJOR tech advances fit for a new model. Like you said, major features that is highlighted are HUD, Apple Car Play, Amazon Alexa, and bigger screen. Not revolutionary.
Originally Posted by Fizzboy7
The ES does not need to re-invent itself or make a major leap. It already has a winning formula. Other brands (Germans/Koreans/Americans) do not have the same bragging rights, so they must go more crazy on redesigns. For the new ES to get an all-new body, all-new interior, and an upgraded V6 is about as drastic as it's going to get or needs to get. When ES sales languish, I'll be the first to say they need to do something more revolutionary.
Originally Posted by BippuLexus
Good reasoning. +1
Its definitely possible Toyota didn't do much to the Lexus ES because its already a best seller. Its not surprising they kept it strictly vanilla in order to play it is safe. But - then again - Lexus (Toyota) has always played it safe with features and design. Toyota is never one to put outrageous features onto a car due to fear of harming their reliability reputation.
My biggest complaint, which Bippu you picked up on is advancements in tech. In addition, it's a bigger problem for me in general that I'm seeing with Lexus lately. Whereas from inception to about 10-15 years ago, unquestionably Lexus was a leader/first-to-market in so many areas:
- build quality, fit/finish
- NVH
- reliability
- tech+features (powerful 6 and 8-cylinder engines, first luxury hybrids, keyless entry push button start, 8-speed auto, Full LED headlights, Shiatsu reclining seats, and the list goes on)
- price/value
And today, among the five key market differentiators above, Lexus has been matched or surpassed, with the exception of reliability though that gap is narrowing with every passing year. Add to the fact that mainstream brands are now also catching up in these areas makes for a weaker value proposition for Lexus. This is concerning when much of the focus of late has been more on design than maintaining leader position on the above. It's disappointing for someone as big a fan boy/owner as myself, but I'm coming to terms there is as good or better now in the market, sadly. Digressing a little, but to enforce my point, the new UX also falls flat here.
I'm the first one to give Audi crap for it's packaging since most of the A6es overseas are 2.0TDI with basic dual zone air conditioning, cloth manual seats, 16' rims etc. you know how it goes. You can still see pre-facelift A6 with halogen projectors driving around. That's not a luxury car that's a badge shopping to rub it in your neighbor's face unless you are German. But the new A6/A7 combo is three steps ahead from the previous one. I have to say it has caught me by surprise, even in base trim it's a contemporary interior and technology that Lexus doesn't even have in LS let alone ES. I have to say good luck to Lexus in Europe for trying to push ES as A6 alternative, from outside it really is especially in F-sport trim, from inside it is very obvious it's an A4 alternative.
I agree - I believe the new Lexus ES will definitely struggle against the new 2019 Audi A6. But then again, I'm the one to believe the Lexus ES doesn't even compete with the Audi A6 at all. If the new Lexus ES were to compete with the Audi A6, I think the new Lexus ES is able to chip away the base Audi A6 sales. Like most German cars, their base models will probably give near to nothing and majority of those "nice" features will be at a premium cost.
I also think its rather unfair to fault Audi or to call any car a "non-luxury" car because of some headlights... Having projector style headlights isn't a definition or the deciding factor to make the car luxurious or not.
Majority of luxury cars still have those projector style headlights. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the projectors within the new LED lights still projectors? IE: The Triple Beam LED headlights vs the regular Bi-LED headlights from Lexus. Aren't the Triple Beam LED headlights still projectors? If you look at it, the only difference is that instead of one circular one, there are just three tiny projectors. In theory - isn't it the same thing? We are just talking the different looks of it?
I also want to put out regardless of projector headlights or not. Audi A6 offering a projector as the base level headlamp is a good thing. Having projector LED headlights is still better than having those non-projector headlights from the 90s. What I mean by that is and I'm looking at MB and BMW. If you option not to get the nice headlights from MB/BMW, they only give you headlamp styles from the 90s. Their cars with out the lighting package reminds me remind me of 2000s Honda Civics with aftermarket HID lights.
Originally Posted by corradoMR2
My biggest complaint, which Bippu you picked up on is advancements in tech. In addition, it's a bigger problem for me in general that I'm seeing with Lexus lately. Whereas from inception to about 10-15 years ago, unquestionably Lexus was a leader/first-to-market in so many areas:
- build quality, fit/finish
- NVH
- reliability
- tech+features (powerful 6 and 8-cylinder engines, first luxury hybrids, keyless entry push button start, 8-speed auto, Full LED headlights, Shiatsu reclining seats, and the list goes on)
- price/value
And today, among the five key market differentiators above, Lexus has been matched or surpassed, with the exception of reliability though that gap is narrowing with every passing year. Add to the fact that mainstream brands are now also catching up in these areas makes for a weaker value proposition for Lexus. This is concerning when much of the focus of late has been more on design than maintaining leader position on the above. It's disappointing for someone as big a fan boy/owner as myself, but I'm coming to terms there is as good or better now in the market, sadly. Digressing a little, but to enforce my point, the new UX also falls flat here.
I would actually still argue build quality, fit/finish, reliability and price/value is still there for Lexus. The build quality on Mercedes Benz and BMW aren't good at all. They aren't solidity build. A good example is the C300 - everything feels cheaply put together. If you push the door panels or the center ceiling stack (where the rear view mirror is), everything moves and feels loose. Also - the rear view mirror makes sounds while adjusting it. The Japanese still have this in the bag for some time. Audi car are build pretty solid though.
Reliability - Toyota and Lexus still has. But I do agree - other car companies are catching up slowly.
Price/Value - I still think the Japanese cars (Toyota/Lexus) still takes the cake here. Its true that the Germans offer you all the latest and newest tech (also they more often than not introduce the tech first), but that comes a premium price. What Toyota/Lexus does is offer you new tech but doesn't lead the tech in anyway. Meaning they aren't offering anything that is revolutionary. This allows them to keep the price down and offer luxury amenities people need or what people tend to buy most. You can see this in their business model too. This is why Lexus never sells you a car option per option. Its very straight forward packaging.
I think the Lexus UX is definitely something that isn't advancing technology but for the UX - I give it pass. The thing is - the UX is about to be Lexus' cheapest offering. Just based off of that - I don't think Lexus ever intended the UX to make people's jaws drop.
I agree - I believe the new Lexus ES will definitely struggle against the new 2019 Audi A6. But then again, I'm the one to believe the Lexus ES doesn't even compete with the Audi A6 at all. If the new Lexus ES were to compete with the Audi A6, I think the new Lexus ES is able to chip away the base Audi A6 sales. Like most German cars, their base models will probably give near to nothing and majority of those "nice" features will be at a premium cost.
I also think its rather unfair to fault Audi or to call any car a "non-luxury" car because of some headlights... Having projector style headlights isn't a definition or the deciding factor to make the car luxurious or not.
Majority of luxury cars still have those projector style headlights. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the projectors within the new LED lights still projectors? IE: The Triple Beam LED headlights vs the regular Bi-LED headlights from Lexus. Aren't the Triple Beam LED headlights still projectors? If you look at it, the only difference is that instead of one circular one, there are just three tiny projectors. In theory - isn't it the same thing? We are just talking the different looks of it?
I also want to put out regardless of projector headlights or not. Audi A6 offering a projector as the base level headlamp is a good thing. Having projector LED headlights is still better than having those non-projector headlights from the 90s. What I mean by that is and I'm looking at MB and BMW. If you option not to get the nice headlights from MB/BMW, they only give you headlamp styles from the 90s. Their cars with out the lighting package reminds me remind me of 2000s Honda Civics with aftermarket HID lights.
I would actually still argue build quality, fit/finish, reliability and price/value is still there for Lexus. The build quality on Mercedes Benz and BMW aren't good at all. They aren't solidity build. A good example is the C300 - everything feels cheaply put together. If you push the door panels or the center ceiling stack (where the rear view mirror is), everything moves and feels loose. Also - the rear view mirror makes sounds while adjusting it. The Japanese still have this in the bag for some time. Audi car are build pretty solid though.
Reliability - Toyota and Lexus still has. But I do agree - other car companies are catching up slowly.
Price/Value - I still think the Japanese cars (Toyota/Lexus) still takes the cake here. Its true that the Germans offer you all the latest and newest tech (also they more often than not introduce the tech first), but that comes a premium price. What Toyota/Lexus does is offer you new tech but doesn't lead the tech in anyway. Meaning they aren't offering anything that is revolutionary. This allows them to keep the price down and offer luxury amenities people need or what people tend to buy most. You can see this in their business model too. This is why Lexus never sells you a car option per option. Its very straight forward packaging.
I think the Lexus UX is definitely something that isn't advancing technology but for the UX - I give it pass. The thing is - the UX is about to be Lexus' cheapest offering. Just based off of that - I don't think Lexus ever intended the UX to make people's jaws drop.
I would politely beg to differ with your statement on Mercedes and BMW build quality when it comes to the E Class, S Class, 5 Series, and 7 Series sedans and coupes. I suggest sitting in one at the dealer. For the same reason I would never say the ES has the same build quality as a LS. In the Luxury brands... build quality seems to correlate with the price of the vehicle. With the exception of Porsche...they all feel pretty good to me. I've got no experience with Audi, so I can't comment on them.
) and similar material in the center console. Price tag also jumped about 5K in Canada for a loaded ES, shown w/Ultra Luxury Package $61K Cdn. Key differences over the outgoing model for us in Canada are Apple Car Play, HUD, and Enform.
