saw new ES, it ain't a GS
09-05-18, 04:27 PM
#16
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
I agree. It is more distinctive and different than the outgoing ES. You have to look closer to see the differences. What was just posted up suits the 'baby LS' name. Everything about it is scaled down, yet scaled up from previous 6ES and yet more luxurious and a touch more refined than the maxed out Avalon. There's no real need for a GS to fit perfectly in between these two looks. The premium or upscale buyer will almost always choose the top shelf product (LS460 or LS500). Yeah, there's plenty of LS460 to choose from that are still in very good condition.
I agree with some of what you just posted. But whole heartedly disagree with you saying there is no gap left to fufill between these two 3 box sedans. The 7ES leaves much to be desired. The LS is far too big for fast paced millennials like myself. As beautiful as the new LS is it still holds that old retiree stigma that it has had since its inception. I would maybe consider the LS as my next daily driver if they offered it in a shorter wheelbase! But wait, that would technically be me asking for a 5GS.
The ES handles way to sloppily for me. If I took delivery of one on a Saturday I guarantee I would end up in a ditch or in the weeds by Monday due to its inherit tendency to understeer when pushed hard into a corner. Maybe my brain is wired wrong, but I enjoy whipping my cars around exit and entrance loops going about 65-70 miles per hour. I think if you imagine the 5GS as a small evolution forward of the current somewhat conservative 4GS than maybe I can agree that there is maybe no room left for a tweener sedan.
But if you start to visualize the 5GS as a revolutionary redesign more reminiscent of the absolutely sexy LC coupé with a stretched wheelbase and with two more doors added to the rear with frameless door windows it starts to makes more sense. Having the base price start at $59,9k and having enough cool performance and luxury features available to pile on a additional $15k would keep it from cannibalizing sales with the LS. The ES is fine for 80% of the Lexus potential buyer. But Lexus has to offer something very sporty that has 4 doors, looks sexy as hell and isn’t too cramped (IS) nor too large(LS). They need a golilocks porridge per se.
Last edited by highrev6; 09-05-18 at 04:31 PM.
09-05-18, 05:16 PM
#17
I agree with some of what you just posted. But whole heartedly disagree with you saying there is no gap left to fufill between these two 3 box sedans. The 7ES leaves much to be desired. The LS is far too big for fast paced millennials like myself. As beautiful as the new LS is it still holds that old retiree stigma that it has had since its inception. I would maybe consider the LS as my next daily driver if they offered it in a shorter wheelbase! But wait, that would technically be me asking for a 5GS.
The ES handles way to sloppily for me. If I took delivery of one on a Saturday I guarantee I would end up in a ditch or in the weeds by Monday due to its inherit tendency to understeer when pushed hard into a corner. Maybe my brain is wired wrong, but I enjoy whipping my cars around exit and entrance loops going about 65-70 miles per hour. I think if you imagine the 5GS as a small evolution forward of the current somewhat conservative 4GS than maybe I can agree that there is maybe no room left for a tweener sedan.
But if you start to visualize the 5GS as a revolutionary redesign more reminiscent of the absolutely sexy LC coupé with a stretched wheelbase and with two more doors added to the rear with frameless door windows it starts to makes more sense. Having the base price start at $59,9k and having enough cool performance and luxury features available to pile on a additional $15k would keep it from cannibalizing sales with the LS. The ES is fine for 80% of the Lexus potential buyer. But Lexus has to offer something very sporty that has 4 doors, looks sexy as hell and isn’t too cramped (IS) nor too large(LS). They need a golilocks porridge per se.
09-05-18, 10:02 PM
#20
Lexus Test Driver
I don't think the new ES was supposed to be like any current or past GS. Lexus made no claims stating so. The ES grew in size, but is still the softer, coddling, FWD sedan it's always been.
As far as some of the comments on how it drives, all the reviews I have read state it feels more buttoned down and substantial than the last ES. In fact, it's getting rave reviews most everywhere, and no one has said it felt or drove like a Camry. This should be a homerun for the company.
As far as some of the comments on how it drives, all the reviews I have read state it feels more buttoned down and substantial than the last ES. In fact, it's getting rave reviews most everywhere, and no one has said it felt or drove like a Camry. This should be a homerun for the company.
09-06-18, 03:12 AM
#21
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
I don't think the new ES was supposed to be like any current or past GS. Lexus made no claims stating so. The ES grew in size, but is still the softer, coddling, FWD sedan it's always been.
As far as some of the comments on how it drives, all the reviews I have read state it feels more buttoned down and substantial than the last ES. In fact, it's getting rave reviews most everywhere, and no one has said it felt or drove like a Camry. This should be a homerun for the company.
As far as some of the comments on how it drives, all the reviews I have read state it feels more buttoned down and substantial than the last ES. In fact, it's getting rave reviews most everywhere, and no one has said it felt or drove like a Camry. This should be a homerun for the company.
You are correct, Lexus hasn’t made any claims that the 7th generation Lexus ES is changing it’s position in the brands hierarchy. I agree with you, it certainly will be a home run and a sales success for the brand once it goes on sale.
Not sure how many reviews you read regarding the 2018 Camry and 2019 Avalon, but all the reviews I found regarding all 3 vehicles used the same superlatives and adjectives to describe the FWD triplets driving dynamics. In fact I don’t think I’ve read one review stating the 2018 Camry is a bad car. They all say it’s the best Camry to date.
09-06-18, 05:04 AM
#22
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
09-06-18, 07:05 AM
#23
The ES is a poor A4 / 3 Series / C class fighter as they are the original sports sedans in the segment. The Lexus IS presents itself well in this segment but the ES is a boat and handles like crap compared to those cars. The new 3 series is going to be a monster and the ES is a **** poor competitor in that segment. The ES sells well being a Buick fighter at most. Lets not pretend is a sports sedan.
09-06-18, 07:16 AM
#24
Pole Position
09-06-18, 07:21 AM
#25
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen
not everyone wants a sports sedan for an entry level luxury car. No one cares that it cant compete with a 3 series performance wise. The ES is the reason why the IS is a great car, whereas BMW has been softening the 3 series over the years trying to make one size fits all
09-06-18, 07:23 AM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
not everyone wants a sports sedan for an entry level luxury car. No one cares that it cant compete with a 3 series performance wise. The ES is the reason why the IS is a great car, whereas BMW has been softening the 3 series over the years trying to make one size fits all
The GS sales are hurt by non enthusiasts wanting a mid sized sedan buying the ES, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t demand for a Lexus in that spot
09-06-18, 07:30 AM
#27
Lexus Test Driver
I have sat in new ES Fsport and posted the video.
It will sell in HUGE #s imo. The interior quality is not Gs level but its not far off. I was impressed.
It will be sad to see GS go. They should make CLS/A7 competitor with base engine (3.5 TT) from the LS making 450hp.
Then the GSF with upcoming TT V8 pushing over 600hp.
Lexus has the means and know how but Toyota is very cheap and frugal to spend the money for a niche vehicle.
It will sell in HUGE #s imo. The interior quality is not Gs level but its not far off. I was impressed.
It will be sad to see GS go. They should make CLS/A7 competitor with base engine (3.5 TT) from the LS making 450hp.
Then the GSF with upcoming TT V8 pushing over 600hp.
Lexus has the means and know how but Toyota is very cheap and frugal to spend the money for a niche vehicle.
09-06-18, 07:48 AM
#28
Pole Position
That’s not really the case. The GS has historically sold well, and it hit its projections early on, sure it sells very slow now but it’s very old compared to the competition.
The GS sales are hurt by non enthusiasts wanting a mid sized sedan buying the ES, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t demand for a Lexus in that spot
The GS sales are hurt by non enthusiasts wanting a mid sized sedan buying the ES, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t demand for a Lexus in that spot
09-06-18, 08:20 AM
#29
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
09-06-18, 08:43 AM
#30
Historically the LS blew everyone away in sales too, but times changed and Lexus has not kept up. A new GS wouldnt move the sales needle very much with the SUV-craze and with the Europeans generally offering more options and performance. Of course Lexus can always pump out another low volume sports car and scream "look at me!"
GS needs a new identity and fitting in between an ES and LS does not seem right. It's becoming a niche car in Lexus' lineup. What's clear in luxury sedans there are now two choices... ES and LS, and hybrid options for both. For sport sedans, we currently have two tiers in GS 350 and GS F (not counting hybrid options).
Does Toyota spend $$ into sport SUV's or sedans? Do you try to counter the success of the Stinger? Do you turbo or not to turbo? Do you get into multiple engine configurations like BMW or simplify to what's tested/reliable/proven? Lots of great questions with costly solutions. Sport buyers can be very picky and the hardest car enthusiast to please.