saw new ES, it ain't a GS
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
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From: California
I would politely beg to differ with your statement on Mercedes and BMW build quality when it comes to the E Class, S Class, 5 Series, and 7 Series sedans and coupes. I suggest sitting in one at the dealer. For the same reason I would never say the ES has the same build quality as a LS. In the Luxury brands... build quality seems to correlate with the price of the vehicle. With the exception of Porsche...they all feel pretty good to me. I've got no experience with Audi, so I can't comment on them.
If you actually take the time to sit in a CLA, C-Class, GLA, GLC, E-Class, GLE, 1 Series, 2 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X1, X2, X3, X4 and etc... pretty much the cheaper end cars - you'll notice tons of build quality issues. As in things are just not solid. I have sat in the E-Class and the 5 Series. The 5 Series, in my opinion, is better built but still has some quality issues for its price. The E-Class faces the similar issues as the C-Class as I listed. If you ask any MB owner, you'll find that MB cars start to have things rattling after near 30K miles.
Note: Audi isn't free of this either. The new A6 and A7 is beautiful - damn beautiful but the center stack that connects the two new screens MOVES if you push it. Carwow (UK reviewer) found this when he pushed it. For real - for a car that is well into the 60K range - that's near unacceptable.
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 477
Likes: 36
From: TX
The thing is - I was referring to the overall MB and BMW build quality. Yes, its true. The S-Class and 7 Series are built well. I'm not going to fault them. For over 100K, they better be. But lets talk about the mass-market models, the models that make up most of their sales and the models that are the majority in their line up.
If you actually take the time to sit in a CLA, C-Class, GLA, GLC, E-Class, GLE, 1 Series, 2 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X1, X2, X3, X4 and etc... pretty much the cheaper end cars - you'll notice tons of build quality issues. As in things are just not solid. I have sat in the E-Class and the 5 Series. The 5 Series, in my opinion, is better built but still has some quality issues for its price. The E-Class faces the similar issues as the C-Class as I listed. If you ask any MB owner, you'll find that MB cars start to have things rattling after near 30K miles.
Note: Audi isn't free of this either. The new A6 and A7 is beautiful - damn beautiful but the center stack that connects the two new screens MOVES if you push it. Carwow (UK reviewer) found this when he pushed it. For real - for a car that is well into the 60K range - that's near unacceptable.
If you actually take the time to sit in a CLA, C-Class, GLA, GLC, E-Class, GLE, 1 Series, 2 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X1, X2, X3, X4 and etc... pretty much the cheaper end cars - you'll notice tons of build quality issues. As in things are just not solid. I have sat in the E-Class and the 5 Series. The 5 Series, in my opinion, is better built but still has some quality issues for its price. The E-Class faces the similar issues as the C-Class as I listed. If you ask any MB owner, you'll find that MB cars start to have things rattling after near 30K miles.
Note: Audi isn't free of this either. The new A6 and A7 is beautiful - damn beautiful but the center stack that connects the two new screens MOVES if you push it. Carwow (UK reviewer) found this when he pushed it. For real - for a car that is well into the 60K range - that's near unacceptable.
Last edited by Frog98; Sep 13, 2018 at 02:06 AM.
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 608
Likes: 89
From: Ohio
The thing is - I was referring to the overall MB and BMW build quality. Yes, its true. The S-Class and 7 Series are built well. I'm not going to fault them. For over 100K, they better be. But lets talk about the mass-market models, the models that make up most of their sales and the models that are the majority in their line up.
If you actually take the time to sit in a CLA, C-Class, GLA, GLC, E-Class, GLE, 1 Series, 2 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X1, X2, X3, X4 and etc... pretty much the cheaper end cars - you'll notice tons of build quality issues. As in things are just not solid. I have sat in the E-Class and the 5 Series. The 5 Series, in my opinion, is better built but still has some quality issues for its price. The E-Class faces the similar issues as the C-Class as I listed. If you ask any MB owner, you'll find that MB cars start to have things rattling after near 30K miles.
Note: Audi isn't free of this either. The new A6 and A7 is beautiful - damn beautiful but the center stack that connects the two new screens MOVES if you push it. Carwow (UK reviewer) found this when he pushed it. For real - for a car that is well into the 60K range - that's near unacceptable.
If you actually take the time to sit in a CLA, C-Class, GLA, GLC, E-Class, GLE, 1 Series, 2 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X1, X2, X3, X4 and etc... pretty much the cheaper end cars - you'll notice tons of build quality issues. As in things are just not solid. I have sat in the E-Class and the 5 Series. The 5 Series, in my opinion, is better built but still has some quality issues for its price. The E-Class faces the similar issues as the C-Class as I listed. If you ask any MB owner, you'll find that MB cars start to have things rattling after near 30K miles.
Note: Audi isn't free of this either. The new A6 and A7 is beautiful - damn beautiful but the center stack that connects the two new screens MOVES if you push it. Carwow (UK reviewer) found this when he pushed it. For real - for a car that is well into the 60K range - that's near unacceptable.
Hey Bippu,
long time no chat! I just wanted to chime in a little here. The industry as a whole is constantly looking for ways to make cars lighter in the name of saving weight in regards to fuel economy and performance, I would venture to say that your right if you listen for squeaks and rattles you will certainly find them in a number of German engineered automobiles. I usually have the music blaring so it’s not something I notice all the time in cars that I ride in. I would have to say the solidity of the door slamming test has Mercedes and such coming out over Lexus imo. But overall Lexus interiors are very competitive. The. LC and LS has set a whole new standard for cars being produced out of Japan. If these two are any indication of what Lexus is going to be doing with the rest of the lineup, the Germans should be a little worried. I know they won’t be, as German engineers tend to be quite arrogant regarding their product being the best.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 11
From: California
Quite frankly - as a future C43 AMG owner. Our community has a huge bias problem. I get it - we love our cars but we have to own up to or we'll just get called "salty fangirls". The build quality - in some areas of a MB/BMW - are utter trash. I'm gonna say as it is. MB/BMW has build quality issues.
Side note: If anyone is paying nearly close to 100K for a E43 AMG (fake AMG), then they are bone headed and getting pipped by Mercedes Benz. I know my future C43 AMG is a fake AMG too but my dad knows the owner of Mercedes Benz of SF and was able to get a steal.
Hey Bippu,
long time no chat! I just wanted to chime in a little here. The industry as a whole is constantly looking for ways to make cars lighter in the name of saving weight in regards to fuel economy and performance, I would venture to say that your right if you listen for squeaks and rattles you will certainly find them in a number of German engineered automobiles. I usually have the music blaring so it’s not something I notice all the time in cars that I ride in. I would have to say the solidity of the door slamming test has Mercedes and such coming out over Lexus imo. But overall Lexus interiors are very competitive. The. LC and LS has set a whole new standard for cars being produced out of Japan. If these two are any indication of what Lexus is going to be doing with the rest of the lineup, the Germans should be a little worried. I know they won’t be, as German engineers tend to be quite arrogant regarding their product being the best.
long time no chat! I just wanted to chime in a little here. The industry as a whole is constantly looking for ways to make cars lighter in the name of saving weight in regards to fuel economy and performance, I would venture to say that your right if you listen for squeaks and rattles you will certainly find them in a number of German engineered automobiles. I usually have the music blaring so it’s not something I notice all the time in cars that I ride in. I would have to say the solidity of the door slamming test has Mercedes and such coming out over Lexus imo. But overall Lexus interiors are very competitive. The. LC and LS has set a whole new standard for cars being produced out of Japan. If these two are any indication of what Lexus is going to be doing with the rest of the lineup, the Germans should be a little worried. I know they won’t be, as German engineers tend to be quite arrogant regarding their product being the best.
Yeah. Long time no chat. Its been a minute.
I'm not 100% about the door slamming solidity test, so I won't comment on that. But I agree. If you listen or actually try to find the squeaks and rattles, you will notice it clearly in German vehicles. That's a for sure. Its more of an admission rather than anything. As a future MB owner, I browse through MBWorld. The community has this refusal to admit their cars, are some times, just utter trash in build quality. If we talk about the luxury features that the Germans offer you, yes, I will admit that Japanese cars need to catch up. The Germans offer the most new tech and they tend to be revolutionary. But we can't sit here and act like they also make the best quality cars because they don't. I feel like the whole German car owner community needs some balance. We have to admit our greatness and our faults.
With that being said, I don't Germans even get worried. Marketing and badge alone sells hard for them. You know the reason why MB is even able to sell a piece of crap like the G Wagon is because they are MB. If Lexus made a G Wagon, called the L Wagon, it'll get laughed at and sales will tank. That's just keeping 100.
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 477
Likes: 36
From: TX
I clearly wasn't talking about the M/AMG type cars when I quoted "cheaper-end cars."
Quite frankly - as a future C43 AMG owner. Our community has a huge bias problem. I get it - we love our cars but we have to own up to or we'll just get called "salty fangirls". The build quality - in some areas of a MB/BMW - are utter trash. I'm gonna say as it is. MB/BMW has build quality issues.
Side note: If anyone is paying nearly close to 100K for a E43 AMG (fake AMG), then they are bone headed and getting pipped by Mercedes Benz. I know my future C43 AMG is a fake AMG too but my dad knows the owner of Mercedes Benz of SF and was able to get a steal.
Hey man!
Yeah. Long time no chat. Its been a minute.
I'm not 100% about the door slamming solidity test, so I won't comment on that. But I agree. If you listen or actually try to find the squeaks and rattles, you will notice it clearly in German vehicles. That's a for sure. Its more of an admission rather than anything. As a future MB owner, I browse through MBWorld. The community has this refusal to admit their cars, are some times, just utter trash in build quality. If we talk about the luxury features that the Germans offer you, yes, I will admit that Japanese cars need to catch up. The Germans offer the most new tech and they tend to be revolutionary. But we can't sit here and act like they also make the best quality cars because they don't. I feel like the whole German car owner community needs some balance. We have to admit our greatness and our faults.
With that being said, I don't Germans even get worried. Marketing and badge alone sells hard for them. You know the reason why MB is even able to sell a piece of crap like the G Wagon is because they are MB. If Lexus made a G Wagon, called the L Wagon, it'll get laughed at and sales will tank. That's just keeping 100.
Quite frankly - as a future C43 AMG owner. Our community has a huge bias problem. I get it - we love our cars but we have to own up to or we'll just get called "salty fangirls". The build quality - in some areas of a MB/BMW - are utter trash. I'm gonna say as it is. MB/BMW has build quality issues.
Side note: If anyone is paying nearly close to 100K for a E43 AMG (fake AMG), then they are bone headed and getting pipped by Mercedes Benz. I know my future C43 AMG is a fake AMG too but my dad knows the owner of Mercedes Benz of SF and was able to get a steal.
Hey man!
Yeah. Long time no chat. Its been a minute.
I'm not 100% about the door slamming solidity test, so I won't comment on that. But I agree. If you listen or actually try to find the squeaks and rattles, you will notice it clearly in German vehicles. That's a for sure. Its more of an admission rather than anything. As a future MB owner, I browse through MBWorld. The community has this refusal to admit their cars, are some times, just utter trash in build quality. If we talk about the luxury features that the Germans offer you, yes, I will admit that Japanese cars need to catch up. The Germans offer the most new tech and they tend to be revolutionary. But we can't sit here and act like they also make the best quality cars because they don't. I feel like the whole German car owner community needs some balance. We have to admit our greatness and our faults.
With that being said, I don't Germans even get worried. Marketing and badge alone sells hard for them. You know the reason why MB is even able to sell a piece of crap like the G Wagon is because they are MB. If Lexus made a G Wagon, called the L Wagon, it'll get laughed at and sales will tank. That's just keeping 100.
Last edited by Frog98; Sep 13, 2018 at 12:13 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,819
Likes: 4,101
From: Maryland
I would politely beg to differ with your statement on Mercedes and BMW build quality when it comes to the E Class, S Class, 5 Series, and 7 Series sedans and coupes. I suggest sitting in one at the dealer. For the same reason I would never say the ES has the same build quality as a LS. In the Luxury brands... build quality seems to correlate with the price of the vehicle. With the exception of Porsche...they all feel pretty good to me. I've got no experience with Audi, so I can't comment on them.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 11
From: California
I'm specifically targeting the likes of the C-Class, E-Class, 1 Series, 2 Series and 3 Series. Hence - what I meant when I said "cheaper end BMWs".My views? So my views on the C-Class and 3 Series having bad quality isn't shared by JD Power and CR? You mean - the same CR that gave Tesla a poor rating without even trying their vehicles? I wouldn't take those reviews to heart. Get in of these "cheaper" BMW/MB and tell me they aren't lacking some build quality. I can post and prove all I want - the matter is - the German car community has to look pass our biases and admit we have some quality issues.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 11
From: California
One 2018 fully loaded model from Turo with Natural Grain Wood.
And one 2018 C43 AMG fully loaded from my friend.
I experienced similar problems.
1) Center console, if pushed, feels cheap and it makes sounds.
2) Wood trims along door panels. They also bend when pushed (no sounds though). Its also easily scratch.
3) Cup holder on the center stack feels cheap for the price of the car. Again my friend's TSX from 2007 has a stronger and more premium closing cup holder.
4) Rear view mirror makes noise when adjusting the sound. (StraightPipe Reviews also stated this in one of their C-Class reviews)
5) Center stack where the moonroof controls. Push the unit itself, it bends back into the roof.
6) Friend's long term C43 AMG. Door panel rattle.
This is my experience with the C-Class W205. This has been my friend's experience. This is also on MBWorld (some people admits it). We can talk on and on about this. But the C-Class interior might look expensive but the build quality isn't there. I have sat in an A4 prestige of the same year compared to the C300 - the Audi A4 is way more solidity put together.
As a future MB owner, nothing annoys me more than giving credit to MB when it doesn't deserve it. We have to be critical in order to advance and push the car companies forward. If we say every car is great, they'll keep pushing us crap.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,819
Likes: 4,101
From: Maryland
So have I...in fact I have a colleague who has a C400 AMG. I just don't agree, I think if you compare it to similar cars in its price range, including the ES, it has a best in class interior.
Let me ask you this question...why did you order one then?
BTW, the center console on my LS460 moves and makes terrible creaking sounds if you push on it, on my 2015 I disassembled the console and put felt in between all the access points to help with that, haven't done it to the 2017 yet but I need to.
Let me ask you this question...why did you order one then?
BTW, the center console on my LS460 moves and makes terrible creaking sounds if you push on it, on my 2015 I disassembled the console and put felt in between all the access points to help with that, haven't done it to the 2017 yet but I need to.
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 9,612
Likes: 4,801
From: GA
So have I...in fact I have a colleague who has a C400 AMG. I just don't agree, I think if you compare it to similar cars in its price range, including the ES, it has a best in class interior.
Let me ask you this question...why did you order one then?
BTW, the center console on my LS460 moves and makes terrible creaking sounds if you push on it, on my 2015 I disassembled the console and put felt in between all the access points to help with that, haven't done it to the 2017 yet but I need to.
Let me ask you this question...why did you order one then?
BTW, the center console on my LS460 moves and makes terrible creaking sounds if you push on it, on my 2015 I disassembled the console and put felt in between all the access points to help with that, haven't done it to the 2017 yet but I need to.
But especially in the case of "if you push on it, it bends"... I mean, that is true of all but the most high-end of high-end cars, in my experience and is just a nitpick, nothing more. Not a deal breaker IMO.
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 608
Likes: 89
From: Ohio
I would love to chime in as I have a lot of experience with various import brands. I’m a little confused to what the qualifications are for good vs bad build quality?
When I think of build quality, I think of fit and finish, attention to detail, quality of materials used in the cabin and their ability to hold up to the test of time.
Mercedes certainly has is weakness is choice of materials. My leather seat had to be replaced under warranty in my ‘14 C63 because of premature wear. It wasn’t from abuse either. Designo aka Mercedes top quality leather is pretty to look at and touch, but it’s durability is ****ty to say the least. It is well known and talked about in the MBworld forums that there is a specific ingress and egress process used by fanatic owners who want to maintain their new car look for the seat leather. I cringe anytime anyone sits in that car especially the drivers seat. Not a way to live your life if you ask me.
Overall most other parts of the cabin in my w204 series c-class holds up well. I’ve owned 3 of them and I would buy another.
Worst interior build quality awards in my opinion goes to the Italians and Brits. Alfa, Maserati, Ferrari and Jaguar, Mini are down right terrible when it comes to interiors.
Shame on them for charging so much money and having the interior fall apart literally in 3-4 years. Obviously most of the people buying and leasing these cars never own them long enough to actually see the interiors disintegrate.
I just rented a beautiful and fast ‘18 Jaguar XF while in SoCal and the car interior was full of cheap materials, even the leather is really bad. I even considered trading my 4GS for a lightly used XF-S AWD, but I think I will pass after driving one of those for a week. Same can be said for the even more expensive XJ which does not hold up to time either.
Audi, Mercedes, BMW all are above average to excellent in the interior build quality department depending on how much you spend. I wouldn’t put a E-class in the same category as the thrown together cheaply made Ghibli.
When I think of build quality, I think of fit and finish, attention to detail, quality of materials used in the cabin and their ability to hold up to the test of time.
Mercedes certainly has is weakness is choice of materials. My leather seat had to be replaced under warranty in my ‘14 C63 because of premature wear. It wasn’t from abuse either. Designo aka Mercedes top quality leather is pretty to look at and touch, but it’s durability is ****ty to say the least. It is well known and talked about in the MBworld forums that there is a specific ingress and egress process used by fanatic owners who want to maintain their new car look for the seat leather. I cringe anytime anyone sits in that car especially the drivers seat. Not a way to live your life if you ask me.
Overall most other parts of the cabin in my w204 series c-class holds up well. I’ve owned 3 of them and I would buy another.
Worst interior build quality awards in my opinion goes to the Italians and Brits. Alfa, Maserati, Ferrari and Jaguar, Mini are down right terrible when it comes to interiors.
Shame on them for charging so much money and having the interior fall apart literally in 3-4 years. Obviously most of the people buying and leasing these cars never own them long enough to actually see the interiors disintegrate.
I just rented a beautiful and fast ‘18 Jaguar XF while in SoCal and the car interior was full of cheap materials, even the leather is really bad. I even considered trading my 4GS for a lightly used XF-S AWD, but I think I will pass after driving one of those for a week. Same can be said for the even more expensive XJ which does not hold up to time either.
Audi, Mercedes, BMW all are above average to excellent in the interior build quality department depending on how much you spend. I wouldn’t put a E-class in the same category as the thrown together cheaply made Ghibli.
Last edited by highrev6; Sep 13, 2018 at 12:56 PM.
Lead Lap
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,830
Likes: 1,336
From: NY
I would love to chime in as I have a lot of experience with various import brands. I’m a little confused to what the qualifications are for good vs bad build quality?
When I think of build quality, I think of fit and finish, attention to detail, quality of materials used in the cabin and their ability to hold up to the test of time.
Mercedes certainly has is weakness is choice of materials. My leather seat had to be replaced under warranty in my ‘14 C63 because of premature wear. It wasn’t from abuse either. Designo aka Mercedes top quality leather is pretty to look at and touch, but it’s durability is ****ty to say the least. It is well known and talked about in the MBworld forums that there is a specific ingress and egress process used by fanatic owners who want to maintain their new car look for the seat leather. I cringe anytime anyone sits in that car especially the drivers seat. Not a way to live your life if you ask me.
Overall most other parts of the cabin in my w204 series c-class holds up well. I’ve owned 3 of them and I would buy another.
Worst interior build quality awards in my opinion goes to the Italians and Brits. Alfa, Maserati, Ferrari and Jaguar, Mini are down right terrible when it comes to interiors.
Shame on them for charging so much money and having the interior fall apart literally in 3-4 years. Obviously most of the people buying and leasing these cars never own them long enough to actually see the interiors disintegrate.
I just rented a beautiful and fast ‘18 Jaguar XF while in SoCal and the car interior was full of cheap materials, even the leather is really bad. I even considered trading my 4GS for a lightly used XF-S AWD, but I think I will pass after driving one of those for a week. Same can be said for the even more expensive XJ which does not hold up to time either.
Audi, Mercedes, BMW all are above average to excellent in the interior build quality department depending on how much you spend. I wouldn’t put a E-class in the same category as the thrown together cheaply made Ghibli.
When I think of build quality, I think of fit and finish, attention to detail, quality of materials used in the cabin and their ability to hold up to the test of time.
Mercedes certainly has is weakness is choice of materials. My leather seat had to be replaced under warranty in my ‘14 C63 because of premature wear. It wasn’t from abuse either. Designo aka Mercedes top quality leather is pretty to look at and touch, but it’s durability is ****ty to say the least. It is well known and talked about in the MBworld forums that there is a specific ingress and egress process used by fanatic owners who want to maintain their new car look for the seat leather. I cringe anytime anyone sits in that car especially the drivers seat. Not a way to live your life if you ask me.
Overall most other parts of the cabin in my w204 series c-class holds up well. I’ve owned 3 of them and I would buy another.
Worst interior build quality awards in my opinion goes to the Italians and Brits. Alfa, Maserati, Ferrari and Jaguar, Mini are down right terrible when it comes to interiors.
Shame on them for charging so much money and having the interior fall apart literally in 3-4 years. Obviously most of the people buying and leasing these cars never own them long enough to actually see the interiors disintegrate.
I just rented a beautiful and fast ‘18 Jaguar XF while in SoCal and the car interior was full of cheap materials, even the leather is really bad. I even considered trading my 4GS for a lightly used XF-S AWD, but I think I will pass after driving one of those for a week. Same can be said for the even more expensive XJ which does not hold up to time either.
Audi, Mercedes, BMW all are above average to excellent in the interior build quality department depending on how much you spend. I wouldn’t put a E-class in the same category as the thrown together cheaply made Ghibli.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 11
From: California
So have I...in fact I have a colleague who has a C400 AMG. I just don't agree, I think if you compare it to similar cars in its price range, including the ES, it has a best in class interior.
Let me ask you this question...why did you order one then?
BTW, the center console on my LS460 moves and makes terrible creaking sounds if you push on it, on my 2015 I disassembled the console and put felt in between all the access points to help with that, haven't done it to the 2017 yet but I need to.
Let me ask you this question...why did you order one then?
BTW, the center console on my LS460 moves and makes terrible creaking sounds if you push on it, on my 2015 I disassembled the console and put felt in between all the access points to help with that, haven't done it to the 2017 yet but I need to.
Why did I order one? Because I still wanted a C43 AMG. My dad knows the owner of the Mercedes Benz of SF and literally gave me an offer that was pretty much a steal - where he doesn't even profit. I thought I'll bite because I do like the C43 AMG performance and sound. Could have went for a C63 AMG but I don't want to waste money on something that will probably never net yield money for me.
Sure. If the LS creaks, it creaks. Call it out if it does. I'm not sure what the LS creaking has to do with anything regarding Mercedes Benz. I'm calling out the issue here and that sometimes German brands get away with murder because of the perception of the brand.
I wish the car community would be less bias towards a specific brand and focus on the advancement of cars as a whole. This is the only way car companies stay on their toes and give us good cars.
I would love to chime in as I have a lot of experience with various import brands. I’m a little confused to what the qualifications are for good vs bad build quality?
When I think of build quality, I think of fit and finish, attention to detail, quality of materials used in the cabin and their ability to hold up to the test of time.
When I think of build quality, I think of fit and finish, attention to detail, quality of materials used in the cabin and their ability to hold up to the test of time.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,481
Likes: 385
From: ON/NY
It happens for a lot of vehicles, yes. The problem I have is, while Japanese brands get called out for this, German brands rarely get called out for this. And if it does get called out, it gets discredited instantly. Its exactly what's happening here. I brought up that the C-Class interior tends to have build quality issues and tons of people disagree. Even though there is YouTube videos on this and forum post on this.
I wish the car community would be less bias towards a specific brand and focus on the advancement of cars as a whole. This is the only way car companies stay on their toes and give us good cars.
.