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saw new ES, it ain't a GS

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saw new ES, it ain't a GS

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Old 09-05-18, 10:54 AM
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highrev6
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Default saw new ES, it ain't a GS

Just saw the new ES for the first time in the sheet metal. It’s a nice car, as the ES always is. But to be frank, “It ain’t no GS”. They took styling cues from the LS500 and RC particularly in the rear and rear quarter areas. The front overhang is gigantic. It looks like a front wheel drive car walking up to it. The headliner isn’t as nice as the headliner in my 6 year 4GS. The plastics aren’t all that soft in certain area's of the cars cabin. This new ES doesn’t break any new ground at all, in fact I’m venturing to say the 4GS still has a nicer interior than the brand new fully redesigned ES.

I didn’t bother to test drive as I know it will drive like the new Camry. The way this car is position leaves plenty of room for Lexus to squeeze a another sedan in between the ES and LS. I feel like customers who buy the GS want a little bit of exclusivity and that’s where the ES is lacking big time. This piled on top of the fact that Lexus isn’t even calling the ES a competitor to the 5 series, A6, E-class or and other medium segment executive luxury car.

I drove away from the dealer with a sigh a relief that the ES isn’t a threat at all to the GS in terms of material quality or exterior styling.

2020 will be the year we see a new GS debut. 7 year life cycles for the GS. I just hope they make it competitive with the A7/S7, CLS, and 8 series GC.

(moderator: moving this to car chat from a photography forum thread, thanks)

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Old 09-05-18, 11:37 AM
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GS is gonna get the axe
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Old 09-05-18, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
GS is gonna get the axe
Big threads on that topic, let's not recreate here - thanks
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Old 09-05-18, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
GS is gonna get the axe

Axe it and replace it with what? Please donít say the 2019 ES! Lexus has already said at the 2019 ES Launch event in Kentucky that the 2019 ES key competitors are the Audi A4, BMW 3 series, MB C-class and Acura TLX. Their not going to axe a model that represents such a large part of the luxury sedan segment without some sort of replacement. Lexus has come to far to just quit and give up on fighting the 5 series and E-class. I have faith in the brand

This is screen shot from the press launch event that took place in Kentucky a few weeks back. The Lexus Executive presenting the slide show here refers to the ES several times as the brands new entry level premium sedan.
they arenít giving up the fight anytime soon.
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Old 09-05-18, 12:31 PM
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I have to swing by the dealer this afternoon to get some new wiper inserts, hopefully they'll have a new ES.
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Old 09-05-18, 12:36 PM
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People got caught by surprise of GS being axed so they got emotional reaction telling themselves that Lexus has something in their pocket when it comes to upcoming ES. Unfortunately that was not the case and that will never be the case. Lexus won't screw with the winning formula as the ES is their best selling car by a mile. ES is the only vehicle in Lexus line up that still thrives the original LS philosophy: more for less. And that's exactly what ES is, it's a discounted mid size sedan with luxury amenities and plush ride. In order for ES to have a cabin quality of GS it means price increase which pushes of ES into German trio turf and suddenly whole discount thing is gone which means sales numbers would be gone too. Lexus Europe is kind of stuck with presenting ES as A6/5er/E competitor cause they desperately need one and can't waste marketing money explaining how both IS and ES are A4 competition.

GS is never coming back that nameplate will get retired much like SC. Some spiritual successor in form of four door RWD sedan might show up but it will not carry GS badge. Just don't hold your breath for it since Lexus is in deep trouble when it comes to moving their RWD products. They are stuck and it will get only worse. We can argue that IS/RC are safe for one more generation but what happens after that it's anyone's guess at this point. My fear is they will be axing one by one as long as they can move Toyota CUV reskins like crazy.
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Old 09-05-18, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Vladi View Post
GS is never coming back that nameplate will get retired much like SC. Some spiritual successor in form of four door RWD sedan might show up but it will not carry GS badge. Just don't hold your breath for it since Lexus is in deep trouble when it comes to moving their RWD products. They are stuck and it will get only worse. We can argue that IS/RC are safe for one more generation but what happens after that it's anyone's guess at this point. My fear is they will be axing one by one as long as they can move Toyota CUV reskins like crazy.
One simply has to look at the Lexus site to see what the future holds. It's all there in plain sight.

We have the compact SUV in the form of UX
A larger SUV style LF-1 Limitless (this will be a refreshing departure from the boxy GX/LX)
LF - FC ( which seems to be the 'fast car' evolution of the GS) It does not need to be a mid grade blend of ES and LS models. I think the GS in the past lineups tried to 'fit' between these two as a good, better, best product offering. The FC can stand on it's own, and offer a 'more' performance experience.
Compact urban vehicle in LF-SA
and a topless coupe in some format.

All practical concepts. The flagship and ES series are ready for market. UX is due this Winter and whoever is next is anyone's guess until all models are introduced/refreshed. In this manner, it gives the 'new' car the biggest possible spotlight and repeat this process so that there's always something exciting and new at Lexus.

In short, the GS series is most likely definitely dead with this plain sight review. Bring on the Fast Car model, which does things that neither ES, GS, nor LS can do. Calling it a GS would be out of character since Lexus has put emphasis on getting RX alternatives out pronto (NX and UX) to complete a good, better, best line up.

Is this spot on or an over reach?

UX

LF-1 LIMITLESS

LF-FC

LF-SA

LF-C2

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Old 09-05-18, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by highrev6 View Post



Axe it and replace it with what? Please donít say the 2019 ES! Lexus has already said at the 2019 ES Launch event in Kentucky that the 2019 ES key competitors are the Audi A4, BMW 3 series, MB C-class and Acura TLX. Their not going to axe a model that represents such a large part of the luxury sedan segment without some sort of replacement. Lexus has come to far to just quit and give up on fighting the 5 series and E-class. I have faith in the brand

This is screen shot from the press launch event that took place in Kentucky a few weeks back. The Lexus Executive presenting the slide show here refers to the ES several times as the brands new entry level premium sedan.
they arenít giving up the fight anytime soon.
The ES is a poor A4 / 3 Series / C class fighter as they are the original sports sedans in the segment. The Lexus IS presents itself well in this segment but the ES is a boat and handles like crap compared to those cars. The new 3 series is going to be a monster and the ES is a **** poor competitor in that segment. The ES sells well being a Buick fighter at most. Lets not pretend is a sports sedan.
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Old 09-05-18, 02:21 PM
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I was in luck, they did have a new ES at the dealer. ES300h luxury package, sticker was just over $50,000. I was able to sit in it briefly but couldn't drive it, this one is a display only and cannot be driven, When they get one I can drive I will do so and post a review.

In short, its a good looking car, but absolutely does not feel as premium as the GS. No way somebody seriously looking at an E Class or 5 Series or A6 is going to consider the ES, unless financially those cars are just out of reach and they want a midsized car. Interior is better than the outgoing ES in places, but still has plenty of cheap plastics to complain about, lower door panels, lower dash, around the console. Stitching on the seats didn't look or feel especially high end either. I actually like the look of the dash of the outgoing car better, although the materials and tech in the new one are better. I hate the new gauge cluster.

This car isn't a UL, no triple LEDs etc, so my guess is a loaded 300h will be about $55k, or 5K more than the outgoing car.

It was sitting next to an LS, and I know on the 5LS forum some people were talking about whether the 7ES would be a replacement for the LS, no way if you care about quality, etc. The interior of the 5LS blows the 7ES away (as it should being twice as much), and the finish and detailing of the LS outside vs the ES continues to be on another level.

Here's a quick picture I snapped of the black ES next to the autumn shimmer LS:


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Old 09-05-18, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
I was in luck, they did have a new ES at the dealer. ES300h luxury package, sticker was just over $50,000. I was able to sit in it briefly but couldn't drive it, this one is a display only and cannot be driven, When they get one I can drive I will do so and post a review.

In short, its a good looking car, but absolutely does not feel as premium as the GS. No way somebody seriously looking at an E Class or 5 Series or A6 is going to consider the ES, unless financially those cars are just out of reach and they want a midsized car. Interior is better than the outgoing ES in places, but still has plenty of cheap plastics to complain about, lower door panels, lower dash, around the console. Stitching on the seats didn't look or feel especially high end either. I actually like the look of the dash of the outgoing car better, although the materials and tech in the new one are better. I hate the new gauge cluster.

This car isn't a UL, no triple LEDs etc, so my guess is a loaded 300h will be about $55k, or 5K more than the outgoing car.

It was sitting next to an LS, and I know on the 5LS forum some people were talking about whether the 7ES would be a replacement for the LS, no way if you care about quality, etc. The interior of the 5LS blows the 7ES away (as it should being twice as much), and the finish and detailing of the LS outside vs the ES continues to be on another level.

Here's a quick picture I snapped of the black ES next to the autumn shimmer LS:


The ES and LS in your pic look so similar.
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Old 09-05-18, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
The ES and LS in your pic look so similar.
In person they don't, the LS is a lot bigger, wider, the lines down the side are really different and the rear ends are really different. From dead on in your rearview mirror it would be hard to tell from a ways back if it were an LS or ES but not from other angles.
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Old 09-05-18, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
I was in luck, they did have a new ES at the dealer. ES300h luxury package, sticker was just over $50,000. I was able to sit in it briefly but couldn't drive it, this one is a display only and cannot be driven, When they get one I can drive I will do so and post a review.

In short, its a good looking car, but absolutely does not feel as premium as the GS. No way somebody seriously looking at an E Class or 5 Series or A6 is going to consider the ES, unless financially those cars are just out of reach and they want a midsized car. Interior is better than the outgoing ES in places, but still has plenty of cheap plastics to complain about, lower door panels, lower dash, around the console. Stitching on the seats didn't look or feel especially high end either. I actually like the look of the dash of the outgoing car better, although the materials and tech in the new one are better. I hate the new gauge cluster.

This car isn't a UL, no triple LEDs etc, so my guess is a loaded 300h will be about $55k, or 5K more than the outgoing car.

It was sitting next to an LS, and I know on the 5LS forum some people were talking about whether the 7ES would be a replacement for the LS, no way if you care about quality, etc. The interior of the 5LS blows the 7ES away (as it should being twice as much), and the finish and detailing of the LS outside vs the ES continues to be on another level.

Here's a quick picture I snapped of the black ES next to the autumn shimmer LS:


That is so ugly.
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Old 09-05-18, 02:32 PM
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I like the styling of both personally.
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Old 09-05-18, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
I like the styling of both personally.
I agree. It is more distinctive and different than the outgoing ES. You have to look closer to see the differences. What was just posted up suits the 'baby LS' name. Everything about it is scaled down, yet scaled up from previous 6ES and yet more luxurious and a touch more refined than the maxed out Avalon. There's no real need for a GS to fit perfectly in between these two looks. The premium or upscale buyer will almost always choose the top shelf product (LS460 or LS500). Yeah, there's plenty of LS460 to choose from that are still in very good condition.
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Old 09-05-18, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by All4Lexus View Post
I agree. It is more distinctive and different than the outgoing ES. You have to look closer to see the differences. What was just posted up suits the 'baby LS' name. Everything about it is scaled down, yet scaled up from previous 6ES and yet more luxurious and a touch more refined than the maxed out Avalon. There's no real need for a GS to fit perfectly in between these two looks. The premium or upscale buyer will almost always choose the top shelf product (LS460 or LS500). Yeah, there's plenty of LS460 to choose from that are still in very good condition.
I donít agree. The LS is twice as expensive as the ES in this configuration, literally the LS is $102,000 and the ES is $50,000. They need something that fills that 60-70k bracket, thatís a big chasm to fill. Buying a used LS460 is not a part of Lexus new car sales lineup plan.

The GS buyer is not necessarily an LS buyer.

Until I sat in the new ES I was coming around to the idea it would replace the GS, but the car is just not up to the standard of that segment.
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