Lexus Unfazed by LS Decline as S Class, Model S Grow
07-09-14, 09:22 AM
#166
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
^^ good points, people 'justifying' luxury choices/purchases on some alleged 'rational' basis is rather silly.
07-09-14, 09:23 AM
#167
Back to the A8 specifically, I have never been impressed by the ones I've seen (pre-refresh, not seen a post refresh yet). They have almost no presence outside the front end, with a body and proportions that look like a big VW family sedan. A8 lags the LS in surfacing quality, paint finish, and proportions.
07-09-14, 12:43 PM
#168
Its fans will defend it as an AWD car, but that's simply not true nor realistic. It's a front drive platform with Quattro. The platform has been optimized for Quattro, but it's still FWD derived, which puts the engine in front of the axles and has FWD proportions. Also available in FWD in other markets.
FWD is fine when you're buying an RX, ES, A4, etc..., but when you're spending $80k+ for a flagship sedan, it's not acceptable. Forget the Bentleys, they're even worse. I see them around, laughably sad that someone paid $200k for what proportionally looks like a big FWD VW.
One disadvantage is that since the platform is FWD derived, the engine sits in front of the axle. When you get the big engines like in the A8, that will cause understeer and other handling/stability deficiencies when changing direction at high speeds. Second visually the car's proportions are negatively impacted, with long front overhangs, shorter axle to dash distance, and other differences from RWD proportioned cars that make it look more plebian (the A8 suffers notably with this).
Third you don't need AWD all the time, in many places (i.e. west coast) not at all. So you're driving around in a car with all the added weight and complexity of an AWD system, when a RWD version would provide even more entertainment with less complexity. The reason you're driving around in an A8 in southern California with AWD is because Audi would be embarrassed to offer the A8 without it - because it would be FWD, which doesn't have a good image and is inferior dynamically. BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes don't have to worry about this, since their non-AWD versions are still respectable RWD cars.
Back to the A8 specifically, I have never been impressed by the ones I've seen (pre-refresh, not seen a post refresh yet). They have almost no presence outside the front end, with a body and proportions that look like a big VW family sedan. A8 lags the LS in surfacing quality, paint finish, and proportions.
The interiors of both are fine, as is to be expected at these prices, but the A8 like most German cars is firm inside, whereas the LS is much more plush in that surfaces feel softer and more wielding.
The top of the doors for example are padded soft stitched leather on the Lexus, whereas the A8 and even new S-class are borderline hard moulded material. The arm rests on the LS are very soft padded and nicely stitched leather, again very firm in the A8 in comparison.
Then you add in the more obvious disadvantages like less dependability, worse long term resale value, and higher price to buy for what isn't really a better car in the first place and it's why I gave the A8 a lower score. I like to say time reveals all truths, and over and over again it has revealed that the LS is one of the best if not best cars in the segment. LS400 today over any of its rivals of the time. LS430 today over similar era S-class. LS460 today over 2006+ S-class (look how rapidly that big glorified German Chrysler has aged and depreciated). The A8 is certainly no competition in this regard. 5-6 years from now it will be another junk car no one will touch. The LS meanwhile...
FWD is fine when you're buying an RX, ES, A4, etc..., but when you're spending $80k+ for a flagship sedan, it's not acceptable. Forget the Bentleys, they're even worse. I see them around, laughably sad that someone paid $200k for what proportionally looks like a big FWD VW.
One disadvantage is that since the platform is FWD derived, the engine sits in front of the axle. When you get the big engines like in the A8, that will cause understeer and other handling/stability deficiencies when changing direction at high speeds. Second visually the car's proportions are negatively impacted, with long front overhangs, shorter axle to dash distance, and other differences from RWD proportioned cars that make it look more plebian (the A8 suffers notably with this).
Third you don't need AWD all the time, in many places (i.e. west coast) not at all. So you're driving around in a car with all the added weight and complexity of an AWD system, when a RWD version would provide even more entertainment with less complexity. The reason you're driving around in an A8 in southern California with AWD is because Audi would be embarrassed to offer the A8 without it - because it would be FWD, which doesn't have a good image and is inferior dynamically. BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes don't have to worry about this, since their non-AWD versions are still respectable RWD cars.
Back to the A8 specifically, I have never been impressed by the ones I've seen (pre-refresh, not seen a post refresh yet). They have almost no presence outside the front end, with a body and proportions that look like a big VW family sedan. A8 lags the LS in surfacing quality, paint finish, and proportions.
The interiors of both are fine, as is to be expected at these prices, but the A8 like most German cars is firm inside, whereas the LS is much more plush in that surfaces feel softer and more wielding.
The top of the doors for example are padded soft stitched leather on the Lexus, whereas the A8 and even new S-class are borderline hard moulded material. The arm rests on the LS are very soft padded and nicely stitched leather, again very firm in the A8 in comparison.
Then you add in the more obvious disadvantages like less dependability, worse long term resale value, and higher price to buy for what isn't really a better car in the first place and it's why I gave the A8 a lower score. I like to say time reveals all truths, and over and over again it has revealed that the LS is one of the best if not best cars in the segment. LS400 today over any of its rivals of the time. LS430 today over similar era S-class. LS460 today over 2006+ S-class (look how rapidly that big glorified German Chrysler has aged and depreciated). The A8 is certainly no competition in this regard. 5-6 years from now it will be another junk car no one will touch. The LS meanwhile...
#1 The platform is not FWD derived, it accepts transverse OR longitudinal engine mounts. It was designed to do both, not designed for one and modified for other. This is important as the AWD drivetrains are absolutely NOT based on the FWD drivetrains. Every part of the engine, transmission, and differentials, is completely different.
The engine location does cause a higher polar moment of inertia, meaning it takes more effort to turn the car. Let's not pretend this matters for this segment, and in fact, let's point out that this very fact makes the cars more STABLE in high-speed maneuvering. Again, in this segment of cars, the dynamics aren't that important. In the sport derivations of quattro, active torque vectoring resolves this problem and makes the car turn-in better than RWD competitors.
#2 I agree with you somewhat, but think Audi has done a good job of reducing the overhangs compared to other platforms that accommodate FWD. It's not that much more than the LS, and really, both have quite large overhangs. Audi has spent a lot of engineering effort to reduce this. The platform sharing they use has allowed them share the cost of this among most of their cars (A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q5)
#3 This is a silly argument. AWD increases traction in all situations, and provides more stability than RWD. It's this inherent unstability (cornering under power leading to oversteer) that makes RWD able to perform better at a track - it's more willing to be disrupted, in the same manner that modern fighter jets are inherently unstable so that they are more willing to turn, thereby increasing agility in flight. (Obviously this is an extreme, but the analogy holds).
Someone with the 4.0T is able to put more power down. Whether it's "needed" is up to the buyer. A lot of people buy bigger engines simply for the knowledge they "could" accelerate fast if they wanted to. I don't see many people in an A8, or S550, or S63, or LS, or 750i, or B7, ad infinitum, actualy do so.
I'm not defending the FWD A8. I think it's a joke to consider it a competitor. It's simply there because people will pay for brand without any substance. A fool and his money, and so forth. Let's stop the bias of looking at the MLB platform through the lens of what's negative about it, though. With as many knowledgeable people on this forum as there are, it's silly to pretend there's no advantage a buyer might see in their daily driving.
Last edited by Infra; 07-09-14 at 12:52 PM.
07-09-14, 12:57 PM
#169
The A8 is a great car... that is based on a FWD platform. You're asking two different questions - one about platform architecture and another about FWD-biased vs. RWD-biased AWD systems. From what I can tell, Quattro and SH-AWD are the two best on the market. Does that make you happy? Why are you getting so personal here?
Just No.
07-09-14, 03:10 PM
#171
I tend to agree. Cars are better than ever. Most share common features, so pick your favorite brand or subjective design and enjoy. The LS is old(er), everyone knows it, so does Lexus but that's ok cause the current one is a good choice and the 5LS which is roughly two years away should catapult it back to the head of it's competitive set. Boom!
07-09-14, 03:19 PM
#173
Lexus Fanatic
I tend to agree. Cars are better than ever. Most share common features, so pick your favorite brand or subjective design and enjoy. The LS is old(er), everyone knows it, so does Lexus but that's ok cause the current one is a good choice and the 5LS which is roughly two years away should catapult it back to the head of it's competitive set. Boom!
07-09-14, 05:13 PM
#174
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by LexsCTJil
The LS, S, 7, A8 are all great cars, most can't afford them, but most want them.
07-09-14, 06:29 PM
#175
Lexus Champion
I don't see the A8 as lagging the LS. I think Audi does a remarkable job in achieving some extremely sharp radii stamping to create nice creases in the exterior, whereas Lexus/Toyota generally can't recreate this type of depth and volume in their production level cars (they certainly try in their concept cars).
Let's be pedantic here, since the small differences matter when comparing cars.
#1 The platform is not FWD derived, it accepts transverse OR longitudinal engine mounts. It was designed to do both, not designed for one and modified for other. This is important as the AWD drivetrains are absolutely NOT based on the FWD drivetrains. Every part of the engine, transmission, and differentials, is completely different.
The engine location does cause a higher polar moment of inertia, meaning it takes more effort to turn the car. Let's not pretend this matters for this segment, and in fact, let's point out that this very fact makes the cars more STABLE in high-speed maneuvering. Again, in this segment of cars, the dynamics aren't that important. In the sport derivations of quattro, active torque vectoring resolves this problem and makes the car turn-in better than RWD competitors.
#2 I agree with you somewhat, but think Audi has done a good job of reducing the overhangs compared to other platforms that accommodate FWD. It's not that much more than the LS, and really, both have quite large overhangs. Audi has spent a lot of engineering effort to reduce this. The platform sharing they use has allowed them share the cost of this among most of their cars (A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q5)
#3 This is a silly argument. AWD increases traction in all situations, and provides more stability than RWD. It's this inherent unstability (cornering under power leading to oversteer) that makes RWD able to perform better at a track - it's more willing to be disrupted, in the same manner that modern fighter jets are inherently unstable so that they are more willing to turn, thereby increasing agility in flight. (Obviously this is an extreme, but the analogy holds).
Someone with the 4.0T is able to put more power down. Whether it's "needed" is up to the buyer. A lot of people buy bigger engines simply for the knowledge they "could" accelerate fast if they wanted to. I don't see many people in an A8, or S550, or S63, or LS, or 750i, or B7, ad infinitum, actualy do so.
I'm not defending the FWD A8. I think it's a joke to consider it a competitor. It's simply there because people will pay for brand without any substance. A fool and his money, and so forth. Let's stop the bias of looking at the MLB platform through the lens of what's negative about it, though. With as many knowledgeable people on this forum as there are, it's silly to pretend there's no advantage a buyer might see in their daily driving.
#1 The platform is not FWD derived, it accepts transverse OR longitudinal engine mounts. It was designed to do both, not designed for one and modified for other. This is important as the AWD drivetrains are absolutely NOT based on the FWD drivetrains. Every part of the engine, transmission, and differentials, is completely different.
The engine location does cause a higher polar moment of inertia, meaning it takes more effort to turn the car. Let's not pretend this matters for this segment, and in fact, let's point out that this very fact makes the cars more STABLE in high-speed maneuvering. Again, in this segment of cars, the dynamics aren't that important. In the sport derivations of quattro, active torque vectoring resolves this problem and makes the car turn-in better than RWD competitors.
#2 I agree with you somewhat, but think Audi has done a good job of reducing the overhangs compared to other platforms that accommodate FWD. It's not that much more than the LS, and really, both have quite large overhangs. Audi has spent a lot of engineering effort to reduce this. The platform sharing they use has allowed them share the cost of this among most of their cars (A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q5)
#3 This is a silly argument. AWD increases traction in all situations, and provides more stability than RWD. It's this inherent unstability (cornering under power leading to oversteer) that makes RWD able to perform better at a track - it's more willing to be disrupted, in the same manner that modern fighter jets are inherently unstable so that they are more willing to turn, thereby increasing agility in flight. (Obviously this is an extreme, but the analogy holds).
Someone with the 4.0T is able to put more power down. Whether it's "needed" is up to the buyer. A lot of people buy bigger engines simply for the knowledge they "could" accelerate fast if they wanted to. I don't see many people in an A8, or S550, or S63, or LS, or 750i, or B7, ad infinitum, actualy do so.
I'm not defending the FWD A8. I think it's a joke to consider it a competitor. It's simply there because people will pay for brand without any substance. A fool and his money, and so forth. Let's stop the bias of looking at the MLB platform through the lens of what's negative about it, though. With as many knowledgeable people on this forum as there are, it's silly to pretend there's no advantage a buyer might see in their daily driving.
Compromise. That's the best way to put it. Now it might be fine with you to spend your $80k+ on a car with FWD proportions, a big engine in front of the axle, and forced AWD even in the west coast just so the car can compete, but I don't see anything redeeming there. Which is why I don't hold the A8 in as high regard and gave it the lower score.
Last edited by Mr. Burns; 07-09-14 at 06:43 PM.
07-09-14, 08:02 PM
#176
Guest
Posts: n/a
I had an event tonight at the Conrad and as soon as I pulled up, the manager insisted we don't pay valet and asked to park the car out front. You don't see many F-sports and even less modified (and parts are on the way). So far people just love the car and most of the negative comments seem to be on the internet of course.
I've noticed compared to past Lexus models I've owned that the new spindle grill cars really attract younger people and more fashionable people. Many have stated they never considered or liked a Lexus until recently. I do see a lot of those same comments on the internet.
Even old, the LS still holds its own.
It is BY FAR the best car I have ever owned.
Good company
I've noticed compared to past Lexus models I've owned that the new spindle grill cars really attract younger people and more fashionable people. Many have stated they never considered or liked a Lexus until recently. I do see a lot of those same comments on the internet.
Even old, the LS still holds its own.
It is BY FAR the best car I have ever owned. Good company
07-10-14, 12:18 PM
#177
Yikes, I apologize if my references anything non-LS was derailed this thread. Let's talk about what design direction Lexus should go in with the 5LS/XF50. Conservative or revolutionary design? Should the 5LS redefine the Lexus design language (new stage of L-finesse), since 2013 model already fits in with the spindle grille family? Or should it be another strict evolution of the current model? Usually it's been the GS lately that introduced new design language, but I think this time it should be done for the LS and SC.
And why should it not be on the level of what the 1990 LS400 and 2001 LS430 were to this segment? The extended, 10 year life-cycle of its predecessor warrants that kind of investment. I'm not sure why you think it should not be close to or on that level. While the LS400 was great, it's not as if the W140 that followed it was a mediocre MB product. In fact that was the last time any company let their flagship shoulder on for a decade or more to bring an excellent offering. The end product from that was an over engineered and innovative vehicle.
Well I sound ridiculous then, as it is not fairly competitive against the new S-Class, in not really being "new". That's expected, as the S-Class has the latest 7-8 years behind it and not just 3,000 parts.. Lexus knows that, as they are working hard on a new one and made this decision to avoid doing the guessing game with MB. Also, to spread out product launches.
As for other competitors, that is very negligible and based on customization programs. Outside of that and technologies not available in the XF40, the LS460 and LS460L are excellent cars in this segment and better than the rest to most discerning, not irrational/emotionally-tied customers.
I have already said all of this, but wonder if you are misreading my words and inverting my message? Especially in regards to "fapping off" about the A8 or the idea I'm calling the LS a cheap car. I only stated I did not prefer an earlier 600hL to my father's car. I did not go and say that the newer 600hL by personal experience is terrible compared to his A8. My point is that, it should had received updates to fuel economy, powertrain (as did the petrol siblings), and a tad more distancing from the 4.6L.
As for price, again I am not concerned about whether or not there's a $132,000 LS. Is that LS worth its price, the same way the $75k LS460L is, by ways of useful improvements? The point is that Lexus should offer you more options and not decline, believing customers won't pay for the extra expense (bespoke customization) or that the market would respond badly overall (new tech).
The XF40 was a pinnacle offering in this segment between 2006 and 2009 compared to the E65 LCi, D3.5 A8, and W221 S-Class. Lexus had their highest annual LS sales ever since 1991 with the 2007 LS. The silly economic collapse ruined that momentum, in addition to a seemingly underwhelming first facelift.
It is really not easy being the LS, in being that you have to carry Japan in this segment and also be valedictorian to have the respect you deserve from the biased auto media and a good deal of the upper income brackets.
Actually, the S-Class in the 90s could reach $200k with the W140 pre-facelift when specifying rare options. The W220 was cost-cutting mess and Lexus obliterated it with the LS430.
Yes, because of familiarity with Land Cruiser, plus love for Lexus brand and Toyota products. In order to respect a moderator's wishes, I will not address the Escalade thing.
Thank you.
I actually hate the Continental and its other tarted up derivatives. As well as the overwrought, yet bespoke Mulsanne. Bentley died with the Arnage and Brooklands/Azure to me of course. The new Flying Spur is a delight, compared to its frumpy predecessor.
The 2006-09 LS, while some may accuse Lexus of cost-cutting on it, was the best offering in its class back then in my opinion and would make me say back then "S-Class, who?" I also loved the UCF30 II and UCF20 II LS400 (just something about past LS facelifts!). MB's W221 facelift was executed well, in added features the LS had into it. Audi, BMW, and to a lesser degree Jaguar 
introduced redesigns that had equal, if not better tech (the former two) at the upper end. The same 2 companies that criticized and teased Lexus for APGS, added self-parking as Lexus dropped theirs.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the LS460/L in regards to competition, outside of being old. The LS600hL again, is another story. I can personally vouch for the prior versions, but from what I've seen the MY2013-present didn't receive changes in key areas.
Any criticisms I have for the LS460, can be covered by the upcoming redesign and only hinder it slightly. The LS600hL fails to equal or best its targeted competitors, unlike the LS460L. Lexus also offers no counterpart to Designo and Individual, but I hope they will soon. The LS460 may best the A8 3.0 and 4.2 based on your observation, but certainly not the S500/550 (for now).
I honestly did not come here to talk about how great or not great the A8 is, but how to move forward with the Lexus flagship and hypothesize the possibilities. Let's stop going off-topic (I blame myself for part of this).
^^^^ I'm going to respond with the 1989 LS coming back like I have said about the GS 400. It won't happen. Those cars at the time were right for that time and caught the Germans napping. The Germans today are simply not the same companies who take Lexus for granted. They are better than ever. One advantage I can see Lexus really having is if the next gen hybrid is amazing. I have a feeling it will be.
Lexus while rising in price is known for its value. It's part of a Lexus and there is nothing wrong with paying less for more or on par. We now have a $132,000 LS which was unheard of in 1989.
Lexus will have a new LS soon and from what I've heard it will be amazing. Of course the same people here will say it's cheap or not as good or whatever they want to continue to bash the LS about.
It's taken Lexus 25 years to get to this point and while some are beating up the LS, no other Asian car comes close to what it's accomplished and it's still one of the better sellers in segment. The 2013 extensive update was just that until the new model comes.
Mr. Burns simply brings up a good point. The A8 y'all are fapping off too is a fwd car with awd added. If Lexus attempted that with the LS it would be called a super corolla etc. But it gets a pass. Hilarious. This does not discount it being a fantastic car.
Anyone that feels the current LS is not competitive sounds ridiculous.
Lexus while rising in price is known for its value. It's part of a Lexus and there is nothing wrong with paying less for more or on par. We now have a $132,000 LS which was unheard of in 1989.
Lexus will have a new LS soon and from what I've heard it will be amazing. Of course the same people here will say it's cheap or not as good or whatever they want to continue to bash the LS about.
It's taken Lexus 25 years to get to this point and while some are beating up the LS, no other Asian car comes close to what it's accomplished and it's still one of the better sellers in segment. The 2013 extensive update was just that until the new model comes.
Mr. Burns simply brings up a good point. The A8 y'all are fapping off too is a fwd car with awd added. If Lexus attempted that with the LS it would be called a super corolla etc. But it gets a pass. Hilarious. This does not discount it being a fantastic car.
Anyone that feels the current LS is not competitive sounds ridiculous.
Well I sound ridiculous then, as it is not fairly competitive against the new S-Class, in not really being "new". That's expected, as the S-Class has the latest 7-8 years behind it and not just 3,000 parts.. Lexus knows that, as they are working hard on a new one and made this decision to avoid doing the guessing game with MB. Also, to spread out product launches.
As for other competitors, that is very negligible and based on customization programs. Outside of that and technologies not available in the XF40, the LS460 and LS460L are excellent cars in this segment and better than the rest to most discerning, not irrational/emotionally-tied customers.
I have already said all of this, but wonder if you are misreading my words and inverting my message? Especially in regards to "fapping off" about the A8 or the idea I'm calling the LS a cheap car. I only stated I did not prefer an earlier 600hL to my father's car. I did not go and say that the newer 600hL by personal experience is terrible compared to his A8. My point is that, it should had received updates to fuel economy, powertrain (as did the petrol siblings), and a tad more distancing from the 4.6L.
As for price, again I am not concerned about whether or not there's a $132,000 LS. Is that LS worth its price, the same way the $75k LS460L is, by ways of useful improvements? The point is that Lexus should offer you more options and not decline, believing customers won't pay for the extra expense (bespoke customization) or that the market would respond badly overall (new tech).
The XF40 was a pinnacle offering in this segment between 2006 and 2009 compared to the E65 LCi, D3.5 A8, and W221 S-Class. Lexus had their highest annual LS sales ever since 1991 with the 2007 LS. The silly economic collapse ruined that momentum, in addition to a seemingly underwhelming first facelift.
It is really not easy being the LS, in being that you have to carry Japan in this segment and also be valedictorian to have the respect you deserve from the biased auto media and a good deal of the upper income brackets.
S class can go over $200k which was unheard of in 1989.
accord and camry pushing 40k? unheard of in 1989.
i was bored and went to GM dealer and i saw a chevy tahoe with a price tag of 74k. unheard of in 1989. i almost puked in disgust.
interesting. maybe it's because of familiarity? among african-americans, escalade is the ultimate respect car. i can't stand that thing, but it's everywhere. bling bling culture is deeply rooted in their culture. i respect that because i was into that stuff when i was young. i grew out of it, but most of my friends are still into that stuff. IMO, Caddy is still top 2-3 luxury brand for most african americans.
accord and camry pushing 40k? unheard of in 1989.
i was bored and went to GM dealer and i saw a chevy tahoe with a price tag of 74k. unheard of in 1989. i almost puked in disgust.
interesting. maybe it's because of familiarity? among african-americans, escalade is the ultimate respect car. i can't stand that thing, but it's everywhere. bling bling culture is deeply rooted in their culture. i respect that because i was into that stuff when i was young. i grew out of it, but most of my friends are still into that stuff. IMO, Caddy is still top 2-3 luxury brand for most african americans.
Yes, because of familiarity with Land Cruiser, plus love for Lexus brand and Toyota products. In order to respect a moderator's wishes, I will not address the Escalade thing.
It's even more surprising the Bentley Continental/Flying Spur gets away with it. Audi was smart to brand itself as an AWD virtuoso so people don't even know about the FWD origins. It also helps that the A8 is a dynamic drive. Great input in this thread LexFather and cmk1.
Audi was smart to brand itself as an AWD virtuoso so people don't even know about the FWD origins. It also helps that the A8 is a dynamic drive. Great input in this thread LexFather and cmk1.I actually hate the Continental and its other tarted up derivatives. As well as the overwrought, yet bespoke Mulsanne. Bentley died with the Arnage and Brooklands/Azure to me of course. The new Flying Spur is a delight, compared to its frumpy predecessor.
Its fans will defend it as an AWD car, but that's simply not true nor realistic. It's a front drive platform with Quattro. The platform has been optimized for Quattro, but it's still FWD derived, which puts the engine in front of the axles and has FWD proportions. Also available in FWD in other markets.
FWD is fine when you're buying an RX, ES, A4, etc..., but when you're spending $80k+ for a flagship sedan, it's not acceptable. Forget the Bentleys, they're even worse. I see them around, laughably sad that someone paid $200k for what proportionally looks like a big FWD VW.
One disadvantage is that since the platform is FWD derived, the engine sits in front of the axle. When you get the big engines like in the A8, that will cause understeer and other handling/stability deficiencies when changing direction at high speeds. Second visually the car's proportions are negatively impacted, with long front overhangs, shorter axle to dash distance, and other differences from RWD proportioned cars that make it look more plebian (the A8 suffers notably with this).
Third you don't need AWD all the time, in many places (i.e. west coast) not at all. So you're driving around in a car with all the added weight and complexity of an AWD system, when a RWD version would provide even more entertainment with less complexity. The reason you're driving around in an A8 in southern California with AWD is because Audi would be embarrassed to offer the A8 without it - because it would be FWD, which doesn't have a good image and is inferior dynamically. BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes don't have to worry about this, since their non-AWD versions are still respectable RWD cars.
Back to the A8 specifically, I have never been impressed by the ones I've seen (pre-refresh, not seen a post refresh yet). They have almost no presence outside the front end, with a body and proportions that look like a big VW family sedan. A8 lags the LS in surfacing quality, paint finish, and proportions.
The interiors of both are fine, as is to be expected at these prices, but the A8 like most German cars is firm inside, whereas the LS is much more plush in that surfaces feel softer and more wielding.
The top of the doors for example are padded soft stitched leather on the Lexus, whereas the A8 and even new S-class are borderline hard moulded material. The arm rests on the LS are very soft padded and nicely stitched leather, again very firm in the A8 in comparison.
Then you add in the more obvious disadvantages like less dependability, worse long term resale value, and higher price to buy for what isn't really a better car in the first place and it's why I gave the A8 a lower score. I like to say time reveals all truths, and over and over again it has revealed that the LS is one of the best if not best cars in the segment. LS400 today over any of its rivals of the time. LS430 today over similar era S-class. LS460 today over 2006+ S-class (look how rapidly that big glorified German Chrysler has aged and depreciated). The A8 is certainly no competition in this regard. 5-6 years from now it will be another junk car no one will touch. The LS meanwhile...
FWD is fine when you're buying an RX, ES, A4, etc..., but when you're spending $80k+ for a flagship sedan, it's not acceptable. Forget the Bentleys, they're even worse. I see them around, laughably sad that someone paid $200k for what proportionally looks like a big FWD VW.
One disadvantage is that since the platform is FWD derived, the engine sits in front of the axle. When you get the big engines like in the A8, that will cause understeer and other handling/stability deficiencies when changing direction at high speeds. Second visually the car's proportions are negatively impacted, with long front overhangs, shorter axle to dash distance, and other differences from RWD proportioned cars that make it look more plebian (the A8 suffers notably with this).
Third you don't need AWD all the time, in many places (i.e. west coast) not at all. So you're driving around in a car with all the added weight and complexity of an AWD system, when a RWD version would provide even more entertainment with less complexity. The reason you're driving around in an A8 in southern California with AWD is because Audi would be embarrassed to offer the A8 without it - because it would be FWD, which doesn't have a good image and is inferior dynamically. BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes don't have to worry about this, since their non-AWD versions are still respectable RWD cars.
Back to the A8 specifically, I have never been impressed by the ones I've seen (pre-refresh, not seen a post refresh yet). They have almost no presence outside the front end, with a body and proportions that look like a big VW family sedan. A8 lags the LS in surfacing quality, paint finish, and proportions.
The interiors of both are fine, as is to be expected at these prices, but the A8 like most German cars is firm inside, whereas the LS is much more plush in that surfaces feel softer and more wielding.
The top of the doors for example are padded soft stitched leather on the Lexus, whereas the A8 and even new S-class are borderline hard moulded material. The arm rests on the LS are very soft padded and nicely stitched leather, again very firm in the A8 in comparison.
Then you add in the more obvious disadvantages like less dependability, worse long term resale value, and higher price to buy for what isn't really a better car in the first place and it's why I gave the A8 a lower score. I like to say time reveals all truths, and over and over again it has revealed that the LS is one of the best if not best cars in the segment. LS400 today over any of its rivals of the time. LS430 today over similar era S-class. LS460 today over 2006+ S-class (look how rapidly that big glorified German Chrysler has aged and depreciated). The A8 is certainly no competition in this regard. 5-6 years from now it will be another junk car no one will touch. The LS meanwhile...
introduced redesigns that had equal, if not better tech (the former two) at the upper end. The same 2 companies that criticized and teased Lexus for APGS, added self-parking as Lexus dropped theirs.There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the LS460/L in regards to competition, outside of being old. The LS600hL again, is another story. I can personally vouch for the prior versions, but from what I've seen the MY2013-present didn't receive changes in key areas.
Any criticisms I have for the LS460, can be covered by the upcoming redesign and only hinder it slightly. The LS600hL fails to equal or best its targeted competitors, unlike the LS460L. Lexus also offers no counterpart to Designo and Individual, but I hope they will soon. The LS460 may best the A8 3.0 and 4.2 based on your observation, but certainly not the S500/550 (for now).
I honestly did not come here to talk about how great or not great the A8 is, but how to move forward with the Lexus flagship and hypothesize the possibilities. Let's stop going off-topic (I blame myself for part of this).
Last edited by Carmaker1; 07-10-14 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Typo: MY2013-present
07-10-14, 01:52 PM
#179
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
there is no need to close this thread. i'm sure most everyone is interested in speculation on what lexus will need to do (or is doing) with the next LS to take on the competition.
although the discussion on the a8 was a bit off track, it was still relevant in comparing its architecture, interior, pros/cons vs the ls.
lexus has said they're not concerned that sales have dipped, they know the current model is in its senior years and no doubt a new one will be a major upgrade.
although the discussion on the a8 was a bit off track, it was still relevant in comparing its architecture, interior, pros/cons vs the ls.
lexus has said they're not concerned that sales have dipped, they know the current model is in its senior years and no doubt a new one will be a major upgrade.
07-10-14, 05:13 PM
#180
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
people 'justifying' luxury choices/purchases on some alleged 'rational' basis is rather silly.