I did the unthinkable
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 904
Likes: 3
From: Florida
Over the past few years sales have gone down quite a bit for the LS - more so than that of the S-Class and 7-Series. Since the LS is the least expensive in the premium segment - I find that concerning. I'm a "root for the underdog" kind of guy - which is one of the reasons I own a Lexus. The most perfect car I've ever owned was a 2005 LS430. It did everything perfectly.
alright everyone please move on. this is a lexus forum and it's ok to be biased, no problem at all. but we should also respect others' opinions. just keep everything constructive and on the matter, not the person.
my opinion? i don't like the other brands having v6 on the flagship line either. but then again, it is what it is. stressing on the "base power" kind of makes it silly though, it's like tweaking things in certain way so something stands out. in a way it's like why not talk about what's the max power and since mb has the s65, no others should be compared to it.
and the price point, other brands are more expensive and i think there is no doubt lexus has the most value for the money most of the time, but then so? what do the sales numbers tell us? bmw mb and lexus all sell about the same, so i think that means there are just about the same number of people who is willing to pay more for other brands.
and personally i can't agree on the price thing much anyway. if that's the case, SW13GS, that means from now on no one can / should compare the ls sales against s class because s class is only lwb, sells a lot more by comparison, for sure more revenue, and thus that's a stronger $$ base? fwiw i don't agree.
and no i am not dinging on the ls at all. the ls is a great car, we just had a loaner for a week and we like it (2014 is huge improvement over 07-12). i think it's a lot of car for the money any day.
my opinion? i don't like the other brands having v6 on the flagship line either. but then again, it is what it is. stressing on the "base power" kind of makes it silly though, it's like tweaking things in certain way so something stands out. in a way it's like why not talk about what's the max power and since mb has the s65, no others should be compared to it.
and the price point, other brands are more expensive and i think there is no doubt lexus has the most value for the money most of the time, but then so? what do the sales numbers tell us? bmw mb and lexus all sell about the same, so i think that means there are just about the same number of people who is willing to pay more for other brands.
and personally i can't agree on the price thing much anyway. if that's the case, SW13GS, that means from now on no one can / should compare the ls sales against s class because s class is only lwb, sells a lot more by comparison, for sure more revenue, and thus that's a stronger $$ base? fwiw i don't agree.
and no i am not dinging on the ls at all. the ls is a great car, we just had a loaner for a week and we like it (2014 is huge improvement over 07-12). i think it's a lot of car for the money any day.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 904
Likes: 3
From: Florida
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,631
Likes: 4,045
From: Maryland
and personally i can't agree on the price thing much anyway. if that's the case, SW13GS, that means from now on no one can / should compare the ls sales against s class because s class is only lwb, sells a lot more by comparison, for sure more revenue, and thus that's a stronger $$ base? fwiw i don't agree.
Lexus has never had a car that challenged these german makes at the high trim levels with upgraded power. That hasn't changed.
Originally Posted by Sal Collazano
Over the past few years sales have gone down quite a bit for the LS - more so than that of the S-Class and 7-Series. Since the LS is the least expensive in the premium segment - I find that concerning. I'm a "root for the underdog" kind of guy - which is one of the reasons I own a Lexus. The most perfect car I've ever owned was a 2005 LS430. It did everything perfectly.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 904
Likes: 3
From: Florida
This is true but Lexus fans know how impressive LS sales have been, at times, during the past ten years or so. Mercedes might have eeked out 30,000 at one point or another but if I'm not mistaken, Lexus had 35,000 one year and close to it several other years. The 7-Series has also sold less vehicles than their best years but those best years were never really THAT high in the first place. Audi is just getting their act together...
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,631
Likes: 4,045
From: Maryland
This is true but Lexus fans know how impressive LS sales have been, at times, during the past ten years or so. Mercedes might have eeked out 30,000 at one point or another but if I'm not mistaken, Lexus had 35,000 one year and close to it several other years. The 7-Series has also sold less vehicles than their best years but those best years were never really THAT high in the first place. Audi is just getting their act together...
It'll be a while before we can really make value judgements about this segment relative to each other.
hope this is not too OT, but since the sales were brought up
it's right, early 2000s with the whole bubble, everyone was buying flagships like it's nothing. but now it's no longer the case. and also yes, a lot of people got into suv too. also there are cars like the tesla and panamera, all of them are taking / chipping away sales.
Mercedes S-Class
2002: 21,118
2003: 22,940
2004: 20,460
2005: 16,036
2006: 30,886
2007: 26,081
2008: 17,787
2009: 11,199
2010: 13,608
2011: 12,258
2012: 11,794
2013: 13,303
BMW 7-Series
2002: 22,006
2003: 20,473
2004: 16,155
2005: 18,165
2006: 17,796
2007: 14,773
2008: 12,276
2009: 9254
2010: 12,253
2011: 11,299
2012: 11,098
2013: 10,932
Lexus LS
2002: 26,261
2003: 23,895
2004: 32,272
2005: 26,043
2006: 19,546
2007: 35,226
2008: 20,255
2009: 11,334
2010: 12,275
2011: 9568
2012: 8345
2013: 10,727
Audi A8
2002: 1515
2003: 4090
2004: 5943
2005: 5430
2006: 5038
2007: 3826
2008: 2825
2009: 1463
2010: 1521
2011: 5700
2012: 6002
2013: 5582
it's right, early 2000s with the whole bubble, everyone was buying flagships like it's nothing. but now it's no longer the case. and also yes, a lot of people got into suv too. also there are cars like the tesla and panamera, all of them are taking / chipping away sales.
Mercedes S-Class
2002: 21,118
2003: 22,940
2004: 20,460
2005: 16,036
2006: 30,886
2007: 26,081
2008: 17,787
2009: 11,199
2010: 13,608
2011: 12,258
2012: 11,794
2013: 13,303
BMW 7-Series
2002: 22,006
2003: 20,473
2004: 16,155
2005: 18,165
2006: 17,796
2007: 14,773
2008: 12,276
2009: 9254
2010: 12,253
2011: 11,299
2012: 11,098
2013: 10,932
Lexus LS
2002: 26,261
2003: 23,895
2004: 32,272
2005: 26,043
2006: 19,546
2007: 35,226
2008: 20,255
2009: 11,334
2010: 12,275
2011: 9568
2012: 8345
2013: 10,727
Audi A8
2002: 1515
2003: 4090
2004: 5943
2005: 5430
2006: 5038
2007: 3826
2008: 2825
2009: 1463
2010: 1521
2011: 5700
2012: 6002
2013: 5582
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,631
Likes: 4,045
From: Maryland
I'm glad you found that, I went looking for it but got busy with "real world" stuff LOL.
This shows what I'm talking about. I think the performance of the 2013 model is very good considering its a second refresh compared to the 7 Series and S Class. Basically tied with the 7 Series...and the 7 Series has more engine choices, more variants, etc.
This shows what I'm talking about. I think the performance of the 2013 model is very good considering its a second refresh compared to the 7 Series and S Class. Basically tied with the 7 Series...and the 7 Series has more engine choices, more variants, etc.
Rookie
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
I was a bit surprised by the A8 numbers. With the way Audi has seemed to become THE vehicle brand in recent years, I assumed that their sales would have been killing all others. I guess it's probably doing better in with with the A4 and A6 models.
I'm glad you found that, I went looking for it but got busy with "real world" stuff LOL.
This shows what I'm talking about. I think the performance of the 2013 model is very good considering its a second refresh compared to the 7 Series and S Class. Basically tied with the 7 Series...and the 7 Series has more engine choices, more variants, etc.
This shows what I'm talking about. I think the performance of the 2013 model is very good considering its a second refresh compared to the 7 Series and S Class. Basically tied with the 7 Series...and the 7 Series has more engine choices, more variants, etc.
yup the latest refresh is a good one. my problem with lexus is always about being consistent in maintaining sales over years. look at mb and bmw, their numbers are quite steady every year. lexus always have great start but things taper off fast. i think consistency is more important
no way audi can come close (yet), but looking back they are doing very good now
CL Community Team
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,264
Likes: 481
From: MA
Thanks for posting those sales numbers Henry. As I read SW13GS saying flagship car sales were down I was wondering what the numbers were and was going to look it up. Like Mitty I was surprised at the A8 numbers, I thought they would be higher.
Although I was also surprised at the low LS numbers for 2011 and 2012.
Although I was also surprised at the low LS numbers for 2011 and 2012.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,631
Likes: 4,045
From: Maryland
You gotta take credit for this stuff! lol
I think the issue there is the new Lexus model comes out and then a year later the MB and BMW model come out and kill their sales. They need to get to where the new Lexus comes out right after the MB and BMW model...
I think the issue was the 2010 refresh was relatively weak...the 2010-2012 felt very tired compared to the competition IMHO.
yup the latest refresh is a good one. my problem with lexus is always about being consistent in maintaining sales over years. look at mb and bmw, their numbers are quite steady every year. lexus always have great start but things taper off fast. i think consistency is more important
Originally Posted by Nospinzone
Although I was also surprised at the low LS numbers for 2011 and 2012.
You gotta take credit for this stuff! lol
I think the issue there is the new Lexus model comes out and then a year later the MB and BMW model come out and kill their sales. They need to get to where the new Lexus comes out right after the MB and BMW model...
I think the issue was the 2010 refresh was relatively weak...the 2010-2012 felt very tired compared to the competition IMHO.
I think the issue there is the new Lexus model comes out and then a year later the MB and BMW model come out and kill their sales. They need to get to where the new Lexus comes out right after the MB and BMW model...
I think the issue was the 2010 refresh was relatively weak...the 2010-2012 felt very tired compared to the competition IMHO.
i think that's valid to some extend but not all. both the s and ls were introduced in 2007 and we see the trend. and if that's really the case, then the introduction of a new lexus should have put a dent on both bmw and mb. i don't see it that much across the lineup.
i think part of it has to do with how lexus doesn't put up refreshes as much (like you said regarding 2010). of course, funny part of me blame lexus because their cars are so reliable so people don't have to change their cars so often (unlike bmw and mb
)here's another example. 2013 LS was good? feb 2013, months after lexus debut the latest LS, lexus sold over 1200 copies. fast forward to last month? they sold less than 600 copies. i am not sure how much we can blame that on the new s class when majority of the LS are at the 60-70k range and the new S are at over 100k, let alone the very harsh lease deals on the s right now because of the high demand
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