lexixel

Hello,

I've just joined the forum after lurking for a long time. I'm thinking about buying a SC430 and have recently become bothered by a dreadful but perhaps unavoidable concern -- clocking.

I've found some ads of 01-03 with less than 100k km (60k miles) for under 15-16k euros. Though tempting, the mileage seems pretty low (suspiciously) for the age. Having said that, I would not buy a used car with much over 100k kms on the clock. From some research, I'm led to believe that odometer fraud is very prevalent in Europe. I currently live in France, but will most certainly buy from Italy or Spain, where more cars are available and around 30% savings can be made. I'll absolutely only buy a car with complete history, most preferably only from the dealer.

I've been working on my cars and can carry out some inspection; however, if an SC with 100k miles is mechanically indistinguishable from one with 50k miles, as the praises of its durability suggests, I'm led to believe that inspections alone will not do. Hence, I have two sets of questions I hope informed owners of SC430, and the general owners of Lexuses, could help me with:

1. How well does the interior (particularly the leather upholstery) hold up? Would one with 80k miles pass for one with only 40k? When do creases and stretch marks occur? Will it be safer to buy one with white (ecru) leather because blemishes are more readily noticeable? It would really help if you could provide some photos for comparison.

2. Since I live in France and shall probably shop elsewhere, can dealers in France check the dealer histories of those foreign, yet nonetheless European, vehicles? Can someone informed with the situation in Europe give me some directions? Alternatively, is there a website where I can check the dealer history of Lexuses (in Europe) with the VIN number?

Thank you very much.

Harold57

Welcome to the forum lexixel. Be sure to read the stickies at the top of the SC430 forum's home page. There are two there that will help guide you as to what to be on the look out for.

With that said, I have owned a 2002 for 9 years now. I doubt that you could tell the difference in the way it looks or performs now with when I originally bought it. It now has over 110k miles on it. However, I've always kept mine in the garage when I'm not using it. It had 33k miles on it when I bought it (it was 4 years old) and everyone thought that it was brand new. My saddle colored leather is holding up well, though you can see some creases in them. (Back seats are pristine though.)

There are several on the forum with cars that have over 200k miles on them. They hold up very well. It is always prudent to be cautious about a used car, just because you don't know how the owner treated it. If they took proper care of the maintenance, then the car should be fine. If they didn't, then all bets are off. Where the car is kept/stored will make a difference also. If it is kept out in the sun, it will not fare as well as one that is kept in the garage and out of the weather.

There are lots of folks who buy these cars and drive them very little, so don't be too concerned about low mileage being advertised. (But do check it out.)

Best of luck in your search!

lexixel

Thanks, Harold57. May I ask if you remember when the creases occurred (mileage)?

On the Internet some sources say that 1/3 of used cars in Germany have been clocked (official stats). French officials also say that caution is needed when buying from Germany in particular. Belgium and the Netherlands seem to have an online database, which France will join in 2018, that stores vehicular history. 0.2% of their cars have tampered odometers. Spain, France, and Italy have around 10-12%.

So the second question remains: Does anyone know if the Lexus dealers in France can check the dealer history of vehicles from another European country?

I'll start calling the ads after I get rid of my German POS car.

Harold57

lexixel,
I don't remember just when the creases showed up or whether they were already there when I purchased the vehicle back in 2006. Just to be clear though, the creases really aren't that bad. Here's a picture of it. Having said that, I have seen others that were quite a bit worse than mine.

I didn't realize that falsifying the odometer was so prevalent there in Europe. It has become rare here in the states.

lexixel

Thanks a lot!

I'm not at all worried about slight creasing. Just hoping to be able to tell the mileage.

Yeah, there's no online system for background checks, and there seems to be some resistance from "certain car-manufacturing countries" to implement one. I guess the manufacturers want to sell more parts, and if the mileage shown is too high the car would not sell and could not generate income for the manufacturers and the tax men. An example I read is that a BMW 530i with 700k kms was locked to 150k kms. Apparently, a 700k car would have been junked, but a 150k car, when sold and broken, is likely to be repaired. The same philosophy: if we can't sell more, we'll repair more.

Bathman

Hi Lex
Welcome aboard, I also had similar concerns as yourself and spent about a year searching for a "clean" SC 430 as they are a rare car here. From my experience there is no better way to try sort the wheat from the chaff than by putting in the legwork. You may have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince or at least test drive them, at least I did. Many had rough bodys and engines seemed just ok but little paperwork to go with them, however interiors were mostly good if a little dirty.
Here in Ireland anyway due to the high cost motor taxes ( 115,000 euro 2002 purchase price plus1850 euro road tax annually) Insurance (650 euro annually) and petrol at 1.35 a litre these cars were mostly newly purchased by a fairly niche (i.e. wealthy) market. Anybody buying these knew that they are an expensive toy and as such they are not too put off by maintenance costs which are very reasonable in comparison with many similarly priced cars. Lots of parts are obviously Toyota and a lot of regular maintenance can be cheaper when carried out at a Toyota dealership, thats if you are not into doing your own work. Depreciation is however astronomical so the older models can be picked up at bargain basement prices, ( I bought a 2002 with 58,500 miles from a lexus dealer/owner, 2 previous owners but little paperwork for 9,500 euro in Oct 14). I have only put up 1,000 miles since then but 5 months on still can't get the damn smile off my face every time I drive her.
There is a 2006, 1 owner (lexus dealer owned) here at the moment with 48,000 miles looking for 25,000euros. I would say after my search they will struggle to get 20,000 even though its the only one advertised since I bought mine last October so don't be put off by the prices you are seeing in France, I have been over there and driven to Paris many times and the one thing that struck me was the amount of junk cars driving around that would not be allowed on the roads here. Best of luck with your search and keep reading up this site as I personally found it has proved to be a goldmine of information .

lexixel

Hi Bathman,

There's no road tax in France, but the insurance may run me up 1100 for liability and 2500 for full. Petrol was 1.6 /litre last year and is temporarily at 1.4.

I saw only one listed by a Lexus dealer, 43k miles, 01/2003, 21k euros. Obviously the price is extortionary. I suspect there's quite some room for negotiation, but feel 13k to be a more reasonable price, 14k with full paper trail. Another private seller of a 04 with 48k miles wants 22k euros (and it's a 4-owner car). I have seen some two-year-old pleb-spec BMWs listed for more than the MSRP. As I'm not French, I have little idea how much this is French humour. Comparatively, a 04 with 66k miles and 3 owners listed at 13k euros is more reasonable.

I'm a PhD student (a little more than 1 year left), so I just want to have some fun and, if I have to work in Europe, bring it with me. I have an old Audi A8 which is PITA to work on, and the gearbox went. I've been suing the crooks that charged me extorionary rate, damaged the car mechanically and cosmetically, and failed to repair the gearbox in almost a year. Hopefully, I'll get some money soon.

Btw, I saw listed on a German site one 2001 Audi S8 listed as having only 80k kms (50k miles) asking for 15k euros, and one 2002 S8 with supposedly 84k kms (53k miles) asking 17k euros. The side upholstry on those cars is so worn out that if these cars have 50k miles my POS Audi would have only 5k miles (it supposedly have 74k miles, though I have no idea from where the previous owner clocked it as I bought it from Germany, where it now seems to be the land of odometer fraud). The worst offender is this dealer: http://www.autoscout24.com/Details.a...000000&asrc=st
This M5 can't have only 137k kms; 731k is more realistic. 50-year-old metro trains in Paris have less worn interior.

Bathman

HaHa LMAO, The only german that would manage to trash the dash and seats like that in a one owner M5 is either Herr Doberman or Herr Rottweiler .

tromly

Excellent analysis, well done sir!

lexixel

The lowest price I can find on autoscout24 is 11000 eur in Italy. The car is a 01 with 82k kms. Its timing belt hasn't been changed, neither has the transmission fluid. From what I understand, it has only 4 service stamps. The interior / exterior seem perfect from the photos (I only called), but the dealer wouldn't budge on the price (no more than 5-600).

I guess in RHD countries the prices are lower, but in Europe that's about as good as it gets. One guy in France wants to sell a 04 with 103k kms and original timing belt for 13000. He wouldn't lower the price, either (except to split the cost of the timing belt service).

I'll keep looking, but probably I'll try to get a GS430 (3rd gen). They can be had for around 10k eur (05). I'll get the SC after I graduate (in another year). I should have had more $ if my Audi lawsuit paid out, but I misunderstood my lawyer: Another 5, 6 months waiting is necessary. Now I'm money-strapped and wouldn't pay more than 10k for a car, however good it is.

andynoel78

Just like you, aging (creasing, cracking) leather drives me nuts. The rate at which creases (which sometimes 'crack', particularly on the sides) develop isn't dependent on mileage. Rather, #1 contributor is weather. Cars from either VERY hot or VERY cold climates (without garage) will have the most wear, while cars from climates 'in the middle' will fair the best. Extreme dry heat will dry the leather, while extreme cold will prevent the leather from 'bending' and 'stretching' resulting in creasing and cracking. Mid-temperatures are best for allowing the leather to bend instead of crease. #2 contributor is the frequency an owner drives. Creases are caused by constant 'entry' and 'exit' of someone's bum every time they take a trip. Typically, higher mileage cars have the same number of 'trips' (they're just longer in duration) as cars with low mileage.

I just bought a pre-owned 2003 SC430 from a local Lexus dealership, and have about 176,000 miles on the odometer. Like most Lexus dealerships, they 're-condition' (and i use that term loosely) the leather on used cars before they go on the lot. This process consists of a 3rd party company 'spraying' a rubbery paint all over the leather. It's not a "dye" but rather a "paint." Sadly, it covers the 2-toned stitching (which is bad) and merely 'fills' creases. With continued use, this 'paint' cracks where the creases are. It ends up looking awful over time.

Brand new OEM Lexus original replacement leather covers are $1,000 USD PER front seat 'section.' ie: $1000 for the drivers bottom, $1000 for the driver back, and the same for the front passenger. that's $4000 to replace the leather on both front seats. Aftermarket covers are plentiful but are CRAP: they're 'pleather' (fake, rubbery leather).

lexixel

Well, I've been under the impression that leather wear depends heavily on how well the car is cared for (the climate indeed plays into it).

Good leather should last decades if kept away from the sun and have creams applied every month. Nobody really loves their cars that much, though.

lexixel

Just a note:

I looked at a MY02 LS430 with 100k miles, well maintained. The leather still looks and feels new, absolutely no crease / crack / wrinkle at all. One-owner, full dealer history, great interior / exterior, great price, has keyless go as well.

However, I found some probable issues with the ATF and the oil. I've asked about it in another thread. Since the SC uses the same drive train, I hope someone with experience can share their wisdom, too.

Here's the link: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...ml#post9003210

mandyfig

I have not heard of tranny stories/issues on our SC's. Knock on wood. I would think the GS that you talked about is an aberration.

Toyota/Lexus have been good with tranny design.