Is this a fair price?
07-24-17, 02:35 PM
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Is this a fair price?
Looking at a 2001 ES300, 158k miles, black interior, silver/gray two tone, has minor wear and tear, but overall it's in really good shape. The seller is wanting $3000 and won't budge on it at all. I think it's because they paid $6000 for it last year and now the driver moved so they're stuck with the car. Is $3000 fair? Kbb says it's worth around $2500, but from what I've seen these cars last forever, 158k isn't anything and the black interior is somewhat hard to find. They didn't know if the timing belt had been changed or not, im prepared to have it replaced or do it myself if needed
07-24-17, 03:55 PM
#2
I'd pay that if it's been maintained properly. Prisitne ones with that kind of mileage where I am can go for 6-7k.
I wouldn't worry about the timing belt, it's non-interference so if it breaks no engine damage. Of course, you shouldn't leave it to get stranded so buy an Aisin TKT024 and do the job.
I wouldn't worry about the timing belt, it's non-interference so if it breaks no engine damage. Of course, you shouldn't leave it to get stranded so buy an Aisin TKT024 and do the job.
07-24-17, 09:59 PM
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Looks to be pretty clean (for its age), needs a mirror repainted, one tail light replaced, and a small tear in the rear seat back at the top, we've agreed on $2800, going to look at it tomorrow. Is there anything I should specifically look for on these cars?
07-24-17, 10:18 PM
#4
Oil sludge is a common issue but you can't get much of a look without taking off the valve cover.
Some say looking under the oil cap will give you an idea, but the screen under my oil cap is pretty clogged, yet the engine has no sludge.
Parked, shift through the gears of the car and check if the tranny mounts are worn. Give the engine some good revs to check the motor mounts.
Make sure the check engine and ABS lights turn on momentarily when starting the car--bring a code reader if you have one.
Maybe give the struts some good bouncing to see if they need to be replaced.
Some say looking under the oil cap will give you an idea, but the screen under my oil cap is pretty clogged, yet the engine has no sludge.
Parked, shift through the gears of the car and check if the tranny mounts are worn. Give the engine some good revs to check the motor mounts.
Make sure the check engine and ABS lights turn on momentarily when starting the car--bring a code reader if you have one.
Maybe give the struts some good bouncing to see if they need to be replaced.
07-24-17, 10:24 PM
#5
I would note that both KBB and edmonds.com can deliver tailored valuations for PRIVATE PARTY transactions to the car, mileage, condition, options, and zip code. I find these incredibly valuable as price guides and persuasive with sellers.
If the t-belt is suspected original, you have to get a fair concession about getting that fixed. If the interior has holes in the leather, that's a real big negative on value and it also raises questions about use and care. E.g., it's in the "good" category of valuation at best and not "very good" or "excellent." Don't let the fact they spent too much influence you to do the same.
Another thing to be aware of is that the transmissions on this narrow year range are known to be fragile. Without some documentation or credible evidence of consistent maintenance, that's a real worry. I like the styling of the 2000 and 2001, but I wouldn't get one with very high miles or above 100k that is now nearing 20 years old and with unknown transmission service history unless I was prepared to pull the engine/drivetrain out and rebuild the transmission in a worst-case scenario. Fortunately I can do that so I personally don't rule out getting one, but it is a concern for any prospective buyer.
If the t-belt is suspected original, you have to get a fair concession about getting that fixed. If the interior has holes in the leather, that's a real big negative on value and it also raises questions about use and care. E.g., it's in the "good" category of valuation at best and not "very good" or "excellent." Don't let the fact they spent too much influence you to do the same.
Another thing to be aware of is that the transmissions on this narrow year range are known to be fragile. Without some documentation or credible evidence of consistent maintenance, that's a real worry. I like the styling of the 2000 and 2001, but I wouldn't get one with very high miles or above 100k that is now nearing 20 years old and with unknown transmission service history unless I was prepared to pull the engine/drivetrain out and rebuild the transmission in a worst-case scenario. Fortunately I can do that so I personally don't rule out getting one, but it is a concern for any prospective buyer.
07-24-17, 10:43 PM
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What would you say is the most reliable year of the es300's? I always assumed the later year models would be the most reliable since the bugs and kinks would be worked out.
Last edited by traksta15; 07-24-17 at 11:08 PM.
07-24-17, 11:08 PM
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Also, what's the average cost of a transmission rebuild? Are the older (stronger) transmissions compatible with the later year models that have the weaker transmission?
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07-25-17, 12:33 PM
#8
As to most reliable 3ES year, I have to defer to others, or you can search this forum and find that answer without a lot of work, there are many good discussions on the transmission issue and year-to-year variations. Search and you'll find a lot of good information.
Generally, there is a very narrow band of years you can swap engine components. This is because of transmission and engine development changes happening regularly, and the fact the PCM (powertrain control module) is tailored to the combination in place that year. While sometimes you can change the transmission to an earlier model, that also requires swapping the PCM and wiring (hard). So it is best to not assume you can get around a problem that way. A decent transmission swap at a good indie shop is generally $1500 these days. And that's usually putting in a swap of the same unit that failed and not rebuilding it to accommodate the known problem(s). Getting a properly rebuilt/improved one and installed is bit more, like $2500 ballpark.
As to sludge, this is not at all "common" but rather pretty uncommon. The only way it develops is not changing the oil for very long periods, like 20k miles or more (depends on climate and usage, of course). Some engines can tolerate that abuse, others cannot. These can't. And back in the 90s, people literally said "It's a Toyota, I don't even need to change the oil." And they didn't. So some rare times this happened.
Generally, there is a very narrow band of years you can swap engine components. This is because of transmission and engine development changes happening regularly, and the fact the PCM (powertrain control module) is tailored to the combination in place that year. While sometimes you can change the transmission to an earlier model, that also requires swapping the PCM and wiring (hard). So it is best to not assume you can get around a problem that way. A decent transmission swap at a good indie shop is generally $1500 these days. And that's usually putting in a swap of the same unit that failed and not rebuilding it to accommodate the known problem(s). Getting a properly rebuilt/improved one and installed is bit more, like $2500 ballpark.
As to sludge, this is not at all "common" but rather pretty uncommon. The only way it develops is not changing the oil for very long periods, like 20k miles or more (depends on climate and usage, of course). Some engines can tolerate that abuse, others cannot. These can't. And back in the 90s, people literally said "It's a Toyota, I don't even need to change the oil." And they didn't. So some rare times this happened.
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07-25-17, 02:50 PM
#10
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Another thing to be aware of is that the transmissions on this narrow year range are known to be fragile. Without some documentation or credible evidence of consistent maintenance, that's a real worry. I like the styling of the 2000 and 2001, but I wouldn't get one with very high miles or above 100k that is now nearing 20 years old and with unknown transmission service history unless I was prepared to pull the engine/drivetrain out and rebuild the transmission in a worst-case scenario. Fortunately I can do that so I personally don't rule out getting one, but it is a concern for any prospective buyer.
(FWIW, the guy did come down WAY more than the $3,100 he was asking for, but I'm still gonna pass.)
This forum is invaluable for dummies like me! (haha)
07-26-17, 04:09 PM
#11
Vs. the 00/01 with the same engine but problematic transmission, yes. When I went to buy ours, I was focused on an 00 or 01 Coach/Platinum but learned all the ins/outs and went with the 4es (02-06). It has the same engine, reliable transmission, fantastic interior (better than any generation before or since IMO). A few mechanical quirks and it has very mediocre styling. It's much uglier than the 3ES, and I think less attractive than the 5ES, but better than the current in exterior styling, and best interior of all. Good mpgs (much better than 3ES given it has the 5 spd U151E), whisper quiet interior and neutral, easy handling. It is not a performance car. I have motorcycles and German cars with insane maintenance needs for that. But if I had to drive from Seattle to Boston tomorrow, I'd take this car and not my SUV or performance oriented Audi. I would also just make sure I had a fresh fill of Mobil 1 10w-30 HM (or similar Castrol or Valvoline) in it, and I'd not even change the oil until I went from Seattle to Boston and back. Really.
The 4ES needs new engine mounts as it ages (has one fewer total than the 3ES - not a great design idea); this is not actually a terribly expensive or difficult job. The DBW throttle and adaptive transmission can give people fits in stop-and-go driving. Despite drivability quirks due to the PCM, the U151E transmission has proven relatively bulletproof to most owners; I rarely hear of issues with it in this generation. In fact, can't think of any. You have to take off the entire intake system every 120k miles to replace the iridium spark plugs, but that's tolerable. Timing belt jobs are no harder than any other car IMO. I've had our 4ES a long time and serviced nearly everything on it and nothing has really been sub-par in terms of expected longevity on a well-built Toyota/Lexus. Ours is up to 277k on it and this month I had to replace the muffler, a front wheel bearing, and radiator. Total cost for parts was $145 (I got a mint take-off muffler for $50 at a local yard), and labor was $0 as I did it all myself. I checked my (insanely detailed) maintenance and service records and that was the first "repair" vs. maintenance items in 18 months.
These are great cars and last forever with minimal maintenance. We will drive this one 2 more years then hand it off to a new teen driver in the family. I'll replace it with an identical low-mileage 330 or possible a similar vintage, mint, low-mileage V8 430 (these are easy to come by where I live). Personally, I am more a GS or german car guy in mentality and habit, but these are great as what they are designed for - "Executive Sedans" - "ES." They do the job brilliantly.
So yeah, I think if you can fit a really clean 4ES 300/330 in your budget, it's a much better bet! I keep trying to justify a newer Audi, GS, etc., but cannot given the miles we put on this and how it runs and holds up.
The 4ES needs new engine mounts as it ages (has one fewer total than the 3ES - not a great design idea); this is not actually a terribly expensive or difficult job. The DBW throttle and adaptive transmission can give people fits in stop-and-go driving. Despite drivability quirks due to the PCM, the U151E transmission has proven relatively bulletproof to most owners; I rarely hear of issues with it in this generation. In fact, can't think of any. You have to take off the entire intake system every 120k miles to replace the iridium spark plugs, but that's tolerable. Timing belt jobs are no harder than any other car IMO. I've had our 4ES a long time and serviced nearly everything on it and nothing has really been sub-par in terms of expected longevity on a well-built Toyota/Lexus. Ours is up to 277k on it and this month I had to replace the muffler, a front wheel bearing, and radiator. Total cost for parts was $145 (I got a mint take-off muffler for $50 at a local yard), and labor was $0 as I did it all myself. I checked my (insanely detailed) maintenance and service records and that was the first "repair" vs. maintenance items in 18 months.
These are great cars and last forever with minimal maintenance. We will drive this one 2 more years then hand it off to a new teen driver in the family. I'll replace it with an identical low-mileage 330 or possible a similar vintage, mint, low-mileage V8 430 (these are easy to come by where I live). Personally, I am more a GS or german car guy in mentality and habit, but these are great as what they are designed for - "Executive Sedans" - "ES." They do the job brilliantly.
So yeah, I think if you can fit a really clean 4ES 300/330 in your budget, it's a much better bet! I keep trying to justify a newer Audi, GS, etc., but cannot given the miles we put on this and how it runs and holds up.
07-31-17, 07:55 AM
#12
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I have 2001 ES300 now 105K miles that I own since 11/2000 bought brand new from Lexus dealer. Regular oil changes, 30K trans oil, brake fluid, 90k power steering fluid, 2 oxygen sensors and one time radiator flush was all that was required plus 3 sets of Michelin Primacy v rated tires. The car runs the same smooth and powerful as when it was new! The millennium silver paint still shines like new except the mount on two outside mirrors where the paint pilled off. The leather seats and mechanisms looks and works like new. We don't drive more since we are retired and have another 2009 Camry but I hate to let go the ES as it is so reliable. Only time it did not work was when the batteries were dead. I got the rebuilt alternator from Artesia Batteries on Ebay for $80 and problem was solved! Now I working on changing trans fluid. I love the car so much I probably never sell it. But looking at the market value, I probably call the insurance agent to drop my collision and comprehensive coverage!
My only issue with both ES300 and CamryLE is getting in and out because of my stiff knees and fat belly! I am thinking of trading in both cars when they come out with 2018 RX350L(7 seater) with all the safety features and rear view camera. I wonder how much they will be asking for and what they will give me for my two cars!
My only issue with both ES300 and CamryLE is getting in and out because of my stiff knees and fat belly! I am thinking of trading in both cars when they come out with 2018 RX350L(7 seater) with all the safety features and rear view camera. I wonder how much they will be asking for and what they will give me for my two cars!
08-01-17, 12:09 AM
#13
I own since 11/2000 bought brand new from Lexus dealer. Regular oil changes, 30K trans oil, brake fluid, 90k power steering fluid, 2 oxygen sensors and one time radiator flush was all that was required
That kind of maintenance will make them last forever, and that is really low miles for the year. Catching one of these with that low miles and good care, I'd like to do and if so, then I would not worry about the transmission issues in the late model 3ES because it has had good service and I could then keep it up. Sounds like an awesome car.
When you go to sell it, do not think of trading it in. Sell it on the board here, on craigslist or Ebay. heck, for a fair price I'd even consider Flying to Florida and driving it back; my wife needs to see more of the US (she is foreign originally) and I could visit a lot of family in FL and the southeast on the way back. I'm serious, pm me next year if you want to sell.
I spent the day today replacing a wheel bearing in our '02. Wow what a difference. I think it's really been failing for 30k but made no noise and there was no wiggle in the wheel until recently. (277k total). I did the other side last month, and replaced shocks and rear springs 50k ago. NOW the car totally handles and rides like new and we are closing in on 300k (albeit, I replace parts as they wear, and at low cost since I do all the work myself and my dad has an awesome home shop with a drill press, 12 ton press, air tools, etc., etc. Keeping them in top shape after 150k takes increased maintenance on the wear items and it can get discouraging if you cant do things yourself. $400 mechanic jobs, I can do for $50 or $80 in parts so I am indifferent. But I love the build quality and engineering excellence on these Lexus; it is light-years ahead of the BMW and Audi level of engineering, quality control, etc. I was previously used to.
08-01-17, 11:19 AM
#14
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I bought my 2001 ES300 for $3100 with 145K on the clock in March 2017. Seemed to be in really good shape. Really clean. Needed new tires, and the check engine light was on for 2 A/F sensors which ended up being a ground wire disconnected from behind the intake manifold. Turns out that the engine was replaced at some point due to sludge. I got the dealer history and it started smoking at 30K miles. I have put quite a bit of money into it. Axles, axle seals, timing belt and water pump, spark plugs, belts, stabilizer links, tires, control arms, 2 new A/F sensors, among other small items like cabin air filter and power steering flush.
I don't know if I got a good deal or not. I'm usually really careful with used cars I buy. I've put 7,000 miles on it since March this year.
I don't know if I got a good deal or not. I'm usually really careful with used cars I buy. I've put 7,000 miles on it since March this year.
08-01-17, 11:21 AM
#15
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Vs. the 00/01 with the same engine but problematic transmission, yes. When I went to buy ours, I was focused on an 00 or 01 Coach/Platinum but learned all the ins/outs and went with the 4es (02-06). It has the same engine, reliable transmission, fantastic interior (better than any generation before or since IMO). A few mechanical quirks and it has very mediocre styling. It's much uglier than the 3ES, and I think less attractive than the 5ES, but better than the current in exterior styling, and best interior of all. Good mpgs (much better than 3ES given it has the 5 spd U151E), whisper quiet interior and neutral, easy handling. It is not a performance car. I have motorcycles and German cars with insane maintenance needs for that. But if I had to drive from Seattle to Boston tomorrow, I'd take this car and not my SUV or performance oriented Audi. I would also just make sure I had a fresh fill of Mobil 1 10w-30 HM (or similar Castrol or Valvoline) in it, and I'd not even change the oil until I went from Seattle to Boston and back. Really.
The 4ES needs new engine mounts as it ages (has one fewer total than the 3ES - not a great design idea); this is not actually a terribly expensive or difficult job. The DBW throttle and adaptive transmission can give people fits in stop-and-go driving. Despite drivability quirks due to the PCM, the U151E transmission has proven relatively bulletproof to most owners; I rarely hear of issues with it in this generation. In fact, can't think of any. You have to take off the entire intake system every 120k miles to replace the iridium spark plugs, but that's tolerable. Timing belt jobs are no harder than any other car IMO. I've had our 4ES a long time and serviced nearly everything on it and nothing has really been sub-par in terms of expected longevity on a well-built Toyota/Lexus. Ours is up to 277k on it and this month I had to replace the muffler, a front wheel bearing, and radiator. Total cost for parts was $145 (I got a mint take-off muffler for $50 at a local yard), and labor was $0 as I did it all myself. I checked my (insanely detailed) maintenance and service records and that was the first "repair" vs. maintenance items in 18 months.
These are great cars and last forever with minimal maintenance. We will drive this one 2 more years then hand it off to a new teen driver in the family. I'll replace it with an identical low-mileage 330 or possible a similar vintage, mint, low-mileage V8 430 (these are easy to come by where I live). Personally, I am more a GS or german car guy in mentality and habit, but these are great as what they are designed for - "Executive Sedans" - "ES." They do the job brilliantly.
So yeah, I think if you can fit a really clean 4ES 300/330 in your budget, it's a much better bet! I keep trying to justify a newer Audi, GS, etc., but cannot given the miles we put on this and how it runs and holds up.
The 4ES needs new engine mounts as it ages (has one fewer total than the 3ES - not a great design idea); this is not actually a terribly expensive or difficult job. The DBW throttle and adaptive transmission can give people fits in stop-and-go driving. Despite drivability quirks due to the PCM, the U151E transmission has proven relatively bulletproof to most owners; I rarely hear of issues with it in this generation. In fact, can't think of any. You have to take off the entire intake system every 120k miles to replace the iridium spark plugs, but that's tolerable. Timing belt jobs are no harder than any other car IMO. I've had our 4ES a long time and serviced nearly everything on it and nothing has really been sub-par in terms of expected longevity on a well-built Toyota/Lexus. Ours is up to 277k on it and this month I had to replace the muffler, a front wheel bearing, and radiator. Total cost for parts was $145 (I got a mint take-off muffler for $50 at a local yard), and labor was $0 as I did it all myself. I checked my (insanely detailed) maintenance and service records and that was the first "repair" vs. maintenance items in 18 months.
These are great cars and last forever with minimal maintenance. We will drive this one 2 more years then hand it off to a new teen driver in the family. I'll replace it with an identical low-mileage 330 or possible a similar vintage, mint, low-mileage V8 430 (these are easy to come by where I live). Personally, I am more a GS or german car guy in mentality and habit, but these are great as what they are designed for - "Executive Sedans" - "ES." They do the job brilliantly.
So yeah, I think if you can fit a really clean 4ES 300/330 in your budget, it's a much better bet! I keep trying to justify a newer Audi, GS, etc., but cannot given the miles we put on this and how it runs and holds up.
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