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You make it sound like Tesla's success is a fluke. Elon Musk does whatever it takes to succeed regardless of personal sacrifice does Peter Rawlinson strike you as someone that is doing the same? Guy turned out to be a double speak snake oil salesman. Should have spent more time figuring out his own problems instead of mocking Tesla now he looks like a complete fool.
Not a fluke, but something that can't be replicated. Tesla came out at the right place at the right time, and brands like Lucid and other EV startups only gained any serious traction by riding on Tesla's momentum. If Tesla didn't succeed, Lucid wouldn't even exist.
If a clone of Elon Musk right now came out and wanted to create an EV startup brand to challenge Tesla, they would fail. Just like how Toyota can never, ever recreate its LS400 moment.
Not a fluke, but something that can't be replicated. Tesla came out at the right place at the right time,
Tesla hit the scene at one of the worst possible times they were trying to gain a foothold during the recession and banking crisis. Tesla Roadster debuted when General Motors was going bankrupt.
and brands like Lucid and other EV startups only gained any serious traction by riding on Tesla's momentum. If Tesla didn't succeed, Lucid wouldn't even exist.
This I agree with and in a broader sense there wouldn't be an EV market to speak of without Tesla.
If a clone of Elon Musk right now came out and wanted to create an EV startup brand to challenge Tesla, they would fail. Just like how Toyota can never, ever recreate its LS400 moment.
Companies like Polestar have found their market and are doing well. Toyota could have another LS moment but have become far too lazy and worse caught up in their sunk cost fallacy.
Here's the harsh truth. Most auto makers are caught up in trying to make EVs without optimizing the machine that makes the machine, that is Tesla's secret. Which shouldn't be a secret at all they literally give tours of their factories. In 2006 Tesla told everyone what they were going to do and how to do it, no one noticed.
Tesla hit the scene at one of the worst possible times they were trying to gain a foothold during the recession and banking crisis. Tesla Roadster debuted when General Motors was going bankrupt.
The Roadster isn't what sent the benchmark, it's the Model S. Which Lucid is still chasing after.
This I agree with and in a broader sense there wouldn't be an EV market to speak of without Tesla.
It's beyond just the EV market. Almost every modern vehicle interior tries to ape Tesla, ape their self-driving systems, ape their over-the-air updates. Tesla basically laid out the roadmap for almost every car that came out over a decade after the Model S. There arguably hasn't been a vehicle that influential across the industry since the LS400.
Companies like Polestar have found their market and are doing well. Toyota could have another LS moment but have become far too lazy and worse caught up in their sunk cost fallacy.
Polestar is not much different than any other OEM EV brand since that's what it spun off of (Volvo/Geely) and so can't really be considered a startup like Lucid. And Toyota, now that they've been established, can't have another LS400 moment because they can no longer catch the German and American manufacturers completely off-guard like they did 40 years ago. And now after sitting on their laurels, they're playing catch-up to EV's made ten years ago.
Here's the harsh truth. Most auto makers are caught up in trying to make EVs without optimizing the machine that makes the machine, that is Tesla's secret. Which shouldn't be a secret at all they literally give tours of their factories. In 2006 Tesla told everyone what they were going to do and how to do it, no one noticed.
Most startups saw EV's as a quick dot-com bubble like scheme to round up investors (thanks to the goodwill created by Tesla) before even coming up with a sellable product that could be mass-produced. Hence why more and more of the EV startups end up looking more like fraudulently run companies over time. Lucid almost became one of them.
The Roadster isn't what sent the benchmark, it's the Model S. Which Lucid is still chasing after.
Correct, but it paved the way (sorry) for the Model S. Lucid is hell bent on making a better Model S because Rawlinson is a former Tesla guy trying to show Elon who's boss. Not a sound strategy.
It's beyond just the EV market. Almost every modern vehicle interior tries to ape Tesla, ape their self-driving systems, ape their over-the-air updates. Tesla basically laid out the roadmap for almost every car that came out over a decade after the Model S. There arguably hasn't been a vehicle that influential across the industry since the LS400.
Legacy auto is half assing it IMO although as time goes by they are realizing they can't compete without going all in. At least the likes of Ford appear to be seeing the light. Toyota is hopeless they are still talking about a multi-tech/platform strategy.
Polestar is not much different than any other OEM EV brand since that's what it spun off of (Volvo/Geely) and so can't really be considered a startup like Lucid.
Not apples to apples I agree, but Polestar is doing their own thing not trying to be exactly like Tesla I appreciate that.
And Toyota, now that they've been established, can't have another LS400 moment because they can no longer catch the German and American manufacturers completely off-guard like they did 40 years ago. And now after sitting on their laurels, they're playing catch-up to EV's made ten years ago.
I honestly don't know what Toyota is doing so many mixed signals. My gut says they will never embrace EVs until it's too late.
Most startups saw EV's as a quick dot-com bubble like scheme to round up investors (thanks to the goodwill created by Tesla) before even coming up with a sellable product that could be mass-produced. Hence why more and more of the EV startups end up looking more like fraudulently run companies over time. Lucid almost became one of them.
Don't know about outright fraud but Lucid in particular can't be trusted with anything they say. They continuously downgrade expectations I am certain Rawlinson does not believe his production and sales projections he knows they are not realistic.
People constantly give Elon crap for breaking promises (they are not actually promises) but he did say almost 10 years ago that in 2020 Tesla would make 500,000 cars and they did. He was relentlessly mocked at the time.
Correct, but it paved the way (sorry) for the Model S. Lucid is hell bent on making a better Model S because Rawlinson is a former Tesla guy trying to show Elon who's boss. Not a sound strategy.
Pretty much agree with everything you just wrote but this especially, because Fisker was another case of another former Tesla employee trying to show Elon who's boss. The story writes itself lol
*Lucid now expects to produce "more than 10,000" EVs this year vs. prior guidance for 10,000-14,000 EVs. Reservations also have fallen recently, a sign of flagging demand.
*The startup on Tuesday announced it's cutting production guidance for the full year. Fisker now expects to build 32,000-36,000 Ocean SUVs in 2023, down from more than 42,000 EVs earlier.
Fisker, Nikola, and Lordstown are basically vaporware. Rivian is going to lose money through at least 2024. Lucid is just priced horribly, but they have good tech. Wouldn't be surprised to see a legacy buy them for the tech
Fisker, Nikola, and Lordstown are basically vaporware. Rivian is going to lose money through at least 2024. Lucid is just priced horribly, but they have good tech. Wouldn't be surprised to see a legacy buy them for the tech
It was mentioned earlier in this thread (at least Fisker) that these were just investor cash grabs. Nikola and Lordstown are definitely "Vaporware", as far as Rivian, I think they will eventually be successful, as they have two vehicles that are actually being produced and are in demand. Lucid is probably not going to make it. As far as Tesla, we already know it's not going anywhere but up, being more valuable than any other automobile company in history
Posted in the Tesla business thread too. Rivian just posted decent results, beating revenue expectations (just), narrower loss than expected, reaffirming production targets and reaffirming expected profitability in 2024. Stock up in after hours.
*Lucid now expects to produce "more than 10,000" EVs this year vs. prior guidance for 10,000-14,000 EVs. Reservations also have fallen recently, a sign of flagging demand.
*The startup on Tuesday announced it's cutting production guidance for the full year. Fisker now expects to build 32,000-36,000 Ocean SUVs in 2023, down from more than 42,000 EVs earlier.
Easy to say its EV demand decreasing, but couldn't it just be the economy?
Easy to say its EV demand decreasing, but couldn't it just be the economy?
Another factor is that Tesla continues to ramp production and lowering prices. Across all 4 factories, they're on track to produce 2MM cars this year. Whether you like the interior or not, the pricing + the super charger network make it very hard for other EVs to get traction
Another factor is that Tesla continues to ramp production and lowering prices. Across all 4 factories, they're on track to produce 2MM cars this year. Whether you like the interior or not, the pricing + the super charger network make it very hard for other EVs to get traction
If you mean by "interior" lack of instrument cluster/gauges and buttons and simplistic cabin layout, that's one thing, but as far as seats are concerned, unless you are looking for MB or other high end luxury, Tesla's seats are very good. They are definitely better than my 2nd Gen IS350 seats were, which were not bolstered very well and the leather was slippery
re: lucid showing up at superchargers asking if tesla owners want a lucid test drive:
Originally Posted by LeX2K
This will make many people hate your brand no one like to be harassed when they're going about their day. Lucid is basically panhandling.
this is an ok guerrilla marketing trick and won't make 'people hate your brand' because they probably didn't think much about it at all.
Originally Posted by swajames
Nothing at all wrong with that sales approach IMO. You've got EV-aware customers there for an extended period while their cars charge. Strikes me as a reasonable marketing effort. Go where the customers are, and give them something to occupy their time.
exactly.
Originally Posted by ST430
They should drive to your house and take you for a test drive.
i expect lucid will probably do this if you ask?
Originally Posted by LeX2K
If Lucid really believes Tesla is responsible for any of their problems Lucid deserves to go bankrupt.
wow, your hatred for anything not tesla is lame. lucid clearly hasn't had the best strategy, and probably won't make it. imo their HUGE mistake was starting with a sedan, trying to copy tesla's 's' and onward approach. tesla did it over 10 years ago, lucid should have started with an suv or cuv. i don't personally like the looks of the lucid, but it is a seriously impressive car. i hope they do make it or it gets sold to someone who can run with it.
