I can’t think of a single thing that carried over between the LS400 and LS430 except maybe the transmission from the 98-00 going to the 01-03? And I bet they still don’t interchange.

the 95-97 LS400 was claimed to be 90 percent new relative to the 90-94 if memory serves.

 

My parents had a W220, the S500 when it first came out. They are relatively reliable, but many people just abandon them when air suspension fails and costs more to replace than the car is worth.

 

But you clearly aren't the person these cars are designed for. 60% of people who buy these do lease them, so while "not everybody wants to do that" the majority of buyers for these vehicles do indeed want to do that. So, you can't fault the designers of the car for designing them for their actual customers.

Mercedes doesn't care about people who buy used like you do, they don't make money off of those people. They build cars for people who buy them new.

Its not that they are designed to "lease, then toss" they are just loaded with technology that makes owning them long term a little scary. That doesnt mean the technology is bad, its what the consumer wants.

 

I would imagine parts bin stuff comprised the majority of that 10%. LS430 was a legit new generation. (So was the 1995.)

Precisely. Parts are out of this world expensive and some are terrible quality.

Complete opposite with LS. Parts are outrageously high quality. For example, when my driver door lock actuator went out, it started working again for about 6 months before finally blowing. My starter was clicking, I called the Indy and he told me to “just click the key repeatedly and it should start and last a while.” That was welll over a year ago and the starter hasn’t literally clicked once. I’m sure I’ll replace it eventually but if it ain’t broke...


Plenty of people still want to buy a brand new vehicle be it S-Class or Accord and drive it until the wheels fall off. People like owning things. Leasing a car is like living in an apartment to me.

And who knows how these W223s will age. I think the W222 still is the benchmark for styling. Extremely bossy and large. This new one has disappointing styling. I would hope the tech in it lasts longer than 3 years.

 

Thats actually not the case. The basic chassis of the LS430 is the same as the LS400, and the 1995 was absolutely not a new generation. The first totally all new LS from the original 400 was the LS460.

The S Class is the undisputed sales leader, by a factor of like 2 to 1, so they must have some idea what they are doing. And the numbers are right there for you to look up, 60-70% of these cars are leased. What S Class consumers do and what Accord consumers do is totally different (the % of Accords that are leased is much lower) As we have demonstrated you are not the target buyer for these vehicles. What you want doesn't matter, we're discussing the car in the context of how it appeals to people who would actually purchase or lease one.

As someone who is an active consumer in this segment preparing to lease a $120,000 flagship sedan in the next 6 months or so, I have come to the conclusion that while my thought process always was to stay with Lexus because "this one will be the one I will want to keep forever", I just never want to do that. I get to 3 years or so and I have the itch to get something new, which I have now. So, whats the point of sacrificing features and technology that I want in the name of long term reliability I will never get to experience? There is no point. I may as well just get an awesome German car full of great tech, performance and a great driving experience, enjoy it for 3 years and get something else. Which is what I'm going to do going forward.

The tech doesn't worry me at all, because I'm only going to have it for 3 years.

 

Not necessary true. The W220 came with many different engine options, including V8 and V12 with forced induction. A regular S430 and S500 were a lot less complex than S55, S65, S600 versions, and therefore a lot more reliable and cheaper to repair. In comparison the LS430 was a lot more primitive, with only one engine and SWB, and rarely came equipped with air suspension. AFAIK, the air suspension on the LS430 is just as prone to failure and just as expensive to repair.

In all seriousness, while the new W223 is certainly polarizing, but love it or hate it, not a lot of potential new W223 customers are going to drive it to the point where they have to deal with broken door locks or failing starter.

 

What I want may not keep Mercedes execs up at night but you act like I don’t have a say at all. I could pony up and go pick one up but don’t want to for multiple reasons, waste of money on a depreciating asset being number 1. We drive like 5k a year if that between both of us. No jobs with clients to drive around etc. I never said MB does not know what it’s doing. If I did want to go spend 6 figures on a car I would hope it wouldn’t fall apart after 3 years, or become very dated bc of the tech.

And you’re wrong about the LS. 1995 and 2001 were redesigns, not freshenings. Wheelbases where changed, weight reduced, etc. The car stayed the same length, though. LS430 was, according to Lexus, 90% new. It took them years to engineer it, was in the works in the mid and late 90s.

 

Sure. I’m just talking about my specific use for my automobiles. But they (long termers) are out there. A guy in my neighborhood had a 1995 W140; that vanished and now it’s a newish W222 that I’m sure he bought new. I would assume based on the W140 that he wants to keep it a while.

 

Carmakers take the wants and needs of people who buy their products Into account when they design a product. Not what people who don’t buy their products post on the internet. I can post a lot of thoughts about what Rolls Royce or Ferrari should do too, but that would be meaningless to Rolls Royce and Ferrari because I’m not a consumer for their products. I am a consumer for a new S Class.

Sure you have some people who keep them a long time, but the majority lease. Those numbers are published, we don’t have to guess about them.

And I’m not wrong about the LS, yes the dimensions are slightly different but they are all still the same basic platform, same basic suspension, same basic engine. That’s not to say they weren’t largely new, they were they just were not completely redesigned from the ground up with an all new chassis etc. The first all new clean sheet redesign of the LS was the LS460.

 

Yes, you are wrong. LS430 and LS400 were vastly different cars even though the way they were luxurious was very similar.

Why would Lexus lie about it being 90% new? Dig deep enough and you can find that stat for yourself.

LS430 was engineered tested in wind tunnels, they wanted the most aerodynamic production car available and achieved it. LS400 was aerodynamic to begin with but they wanted more. Engineers went to high end hotels to get inspiration for the interior (which is farrrr better and more luxurious, more wood, than the preceding LS400). Some parts bin pieces like mirror switches etc. were carried over but the LS430 was a redesign, not a refresh. Just look at the two cars side by side, it's pretty obvious. They were working on LS430 as a replacement from about 1995 on. LS430 wasn't just a refresh they put together fast in April 2000.

You're confusing a heavy refresh like the '13 LS460 with a redesign which is what the 1995 and 2001 models were.

 

You said it yourself, if the car is 90% new or updated (that’s what they said) then it’s not a 100% clean sheet design. I am 100% confident that I am right.

I’m not confusing anything. The 2013 heavy refresh was not early as extensive as the new generation 95 LS400 or LS430.

Just because a car is a new generation doesn’t mean it’s a clean sheet design. Bringing it back to the S Class, the W222 is not a clean sheet redesign, it’s underpinnings are basically the same as the W221.

The first all new clean sheet redesign of the LS was the LS460. Looking at the cars doesn’t tell you anything, every body panel was different on the 95 LS, every interior part, the engine and suspension were heavily revised but they did not start from scratch with the 1995 like they did with the 1990. Nor did they do that with the LS439. The LS460 however is from the ground up a completely new car not derived from the previous chassis.

 

Let's see what others think. There were names for each generation (UFC 10, 20, 30) etc.

Mirror switches and sunroof controls don't count in my eyes.

 

Precisely. You just proved my point.

 

it is all speculation that this cars tech or the car itself is built to last three years. Nobody is saying that. In fact, this will be the first Mercedes that will allow pushed updates like a Tesla. That is something Tesla gave to the automotive world that is truly remarkable.

as for 120k+ sedans, it absolutely makes more sense to lease such a high depreciating asset versus owning it.

 

You should do some research into this. Yes there are names, that means nothing.

You think I’m saying that these cars are just refreshed and that’s NOT what I am saying. They are redesigned cars not refreshes but the original chassis of the LS was adapted into those redesigns. It was NOT adapted into the LS460. Nor was the LS460 adapted into the LS500, it’s also an all new car from the ground up.