Lexus Management Shakeup
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Joined: Jun 2014
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From: MA
About the LS...
I remain unconvinced that an LS that was more “true” to the heritage of the LS (soft, smooth, with a V8) than the LS500 would sell well. Everyone assumes the LS500 sales struggle is a result of its design. I’m not to sure.
I think Lexus messed up by keeping the LS460 for too long. It should have been an all new car back in 2013 or 2014, instead of a refresh. Many folks who had LS460 leases left the brand because they were ready for a new LS, which didn’t come until 2018. By the time the LS500 came out, those buyers had already moved on, mostly to the S Class I think. So I think an LS, soft and with a V8, would also be struggling like the current LS500.
And now I see Lexus making the same mistake with the GS and the IS too. Frustrating. But maybe this change in leadership will help before it becomes too late.
I remain unconvinced that an LS that was more “true” to the heritage of the LS (soft, smooth, with a V8) than the LS500 would sell well. Everyone assumes the LS500 sales struggle is a result of its design. I’m not to sure.
I think Lexus messed up by keeping the LS460 for too long. It should have been an all new car back in 2013 or 2014, instead of a refresh. Many folks who had LS460 leases left the brand because they were ready for a new LS, which didn’t come until 2018. By the time the LS500 came out, those buyers had already moved on, mostly to the S Class I think. So I think an LS, soft and with a V8, would also be struggling like the current LS500.
And now I see Lexus making the same mistake with the GS and the IS too. Frustrating. But maybe this change in leadership will help before it becomes too late.
Lexus Fanatic
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From: ON/NY
I basically agree with Jill, and don't see it as a troll. It's true that V12s (and W12s, if you want to include the now-defunct VW Phaeton) are few and far between. But that is exactly the point that Jill is making....more are needed, especially from luxury automakers like Lexus. Not everyone is enthralled with smaller engines and turbos. IMO, despite the efficiency factor, turbos are more moving parts to wear out or fail, extra ductwork and hardware under the hood to clutter things up, more heat and pressure inside the engine, more stress on the engine oil (although today's synthetic oils are admittedly the best ever produced), and, in some cases, require careful start-up/shutdown techniques, although not as such as in the past. Most (but not necessarily all) of this is being done in the name of CAFE.....which comes from the government more than car buyers themselves. I've long-believed (and still do) that, for everyday driving, N/A V12s, V8s, and V6s are preferable to smaller engines with turbos. And that's exactly what were are seeing disappear from many vehicles.....larger N/A blocks. I wouldn't trade my N/A 3.6L GM V6 for any four-banger on the market., turbo or not...although, of course with some vehicles, you have no choice...4-banger turbos are both standard and optional, like the Lincoln Corsair, or it's a choice between a turbo-4 and twin-turbo V6, like some other Cadillac and Lincoln products.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,571
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
I remain unconvinced that an LS that was more “true” to the heritage of the LS (soft, smooth, with a V8) than the LS500 would sell well. Everyone assumes the LS500 sales struggle is a result of its design. I’m not to sure.
I think Lexus messed up by keeping the LS460 for too long. It should have been an all new car back in 2013 or 2014, instead of a refresh. Many folks who had LS460 leases left the brand because they were ready for a new LS, which didn’t come until 2018. By the time the LS500 came out, those buyers had already moved on, mostly to the S Class I think. So I think an LS, soft and with a V8, would also be struggling like the current LS500.
.....if you say that former LS buyers, five or six years ago, left the marque for Mercedes S-Class because of the S's smooth road-manners and library-quietness, what makes you think that they would have moved into a more sport-oriented LS back then? I'm not sure I agree with your point of view....I don't think they necessarily wanted what the new LS is offering today.
And now I see Lexus making the same mistake with the GS and the IS too. Frustrating. But maybe this change in leadership will help before it becomes too late.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
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From: Maryland
V12 is the least of their problems.
They need proper luxury crossovers on proper luxury RWD platforms. They need an overhaul of their entire tech interface.
They need proper luxury crossovers on proper luxury RWD platforms. They need an overhaul of their entire tech interface.
Last edited by SW17LS; Dec 8, 2019 at 04:47 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,571
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Let's face it....no V12, and whatever vehicle it is installed in, is going to be inexpensive, and, of course, there will also have to be room under the hood for an engine that size to fit in the first place. But, given the complexities of a turbo or twin-turbo V8 (or, in the case of the LS500, a twin-turbo V6), most automakers should be able to produce the larger (but less-complex) engine for probably the same amount...or minimally more at most. The key is the potential market....how many potential buyers will you find? Probably not a huge number, but those who do end up with one can usually afford them (Hollywood, celebrities, bank presidents, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc...) and the manufacturer, at least, will not be losing money on repos.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,514
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From: ON/NY
Yeah, V12 is never gonna happen. But it is a fair criticism. At least the Toyota brand will go down in history of having a V12. Lexus did have a V10.
Well, Lexus sells 700,000 units worldwide. I am sure there will be 2-3K buyers out there.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; Dec 8, 2019 at 04:55 PM.
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From: WA
Just curious .....if you say that former LS buyers, five or six years ago, left the marque for Mercedes S-Class because of the S's smooth road-manners and library-quietness, what makes you think that they would have moved into a more sport-oriented LS back then? I'm not sure I agree with your point of view....I don't think they necessarily wanted what the new LS is offering today.
.....if you say that former LS buyers, five or six years ago, left the marque for Mercedes S-Class because of the S's smooth road-manners and library-quietness, what makes you think that they would have moved into a more sport-oriented LS back then? I'm not sure I agree with your point of view....I don't think they necessarily wanted what the new LS is offering today.
I'm not sure that new managers at Lexus will make a difference with the GS and IS. Despite support for those two vehicles here in forums like CL, their sport-oriented buyer-base, nationwide, is shrinking. Besides, the 3Gen IS didn't impress me at all...IMO, by former Lexus standards, it was cheaply designed and built. The GS is nicer inside and out, but most Lexus sedan-buyers, today, seem to prefer the ES. And even the ES is not doing that well, compared to the past.....the real gainers are the RX and NX.
What is your source that the "sport-oriented buyer-base, nationwide, is shrinking"? I don't agree with that assessment at all. The spell of hard luck that Lexus may be facing in some products is not because they went in a more sporty direction, but because they didn't go far enough. If you're going to go sporty, then go all in and do it well. Unlike you, I think the current IS was quite wonderful when it debuted in 2013. I loved mine. But then they went stale when the competition kept moving. My thoughts, anyway.
Unlike many on here, I have no issue with Lexus selling "fancied up Toyotas" en masse. I think the new ES is fantastic, and I still think the RX and NX are great (though the RX-L is a disappointment for interior space, which is why I have a Highlander). What I would like to see is Lexus using those models to finance their efforts on slower selling vehicles. These vehicles are important for brand image.
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Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Perhaps I am not articulating well. I did not state that people went to the S Class because it was soft. I think they went there because it was new and there was no new LS. So my point is not that the LS500, as it is now, would have sold well back in 2013. I don't know if it would or wouldn't. My point is that when Lexus introduced a new LS in 2018, it didn't matter if it was sporty or more traditional, because so many heritage LS buyers had already left, because the S Class was new and the LS was not.
. Yes, that states your point of view a little better. Yes, when some people get the new-vehicle itch, it can be difficult to resist it, whether they actually need one or not. And, let's be honest.....it is difficult to beat the road-manners of the current S-Class, which is considered an industry benchmark.
No, it's too late for the current IS and GS to avoid that fate. My hope is new management will start heading in the right direction (as I see it) to avoid doing this again well into the future.
What is your source that the "sport-oriented buyer-base, nationwide, is shrinking"? I don't agree with that assessment at all. The spell of hard luck that Lexus may be facing in some products is not because they went in a more sporty direction, but because they didn't go far enough. If you're going to go sporty, then go all in and do it well.
Unlike you, I think the current IS was quite wonderful when it debuted in 2013. I loved mine. But then they went stale when the competition kept moving. My thoughts, anyway.
, but I owned a 1Gen IS300 for six years, and was simply comparing it against its two successors...I was not impressed.
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Joined: Dec 2014
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From: South Carolina
Perhaps I am not articulating well. I did not state that people went to the S Class because it was soft. I think they went there because it was new and there was no new LS. So my point is not that the LS500, as it is now, would have sold well back in 2013. I don't know if it would or wouldn't. My point is that when Lexus introduced a new LS in 2018, it didn't matter if it was sporty or more traditional, because so many heritage LS buyers had already left, because the S Class was new and the LS was not.
No, it's too late for the current IS and GS to avoid that fate. My hope is new management will start heading in the right direction (as I see it) to avoid doing this again well into the future.
What is your source that the "sport-oriented buyer-base, nationwide, is shrinking"? I don't agree with that assessment at all. The spell of hard luck that Lexus may be facing in some products is not because they went in a more sporty direction, but because they didn't go far enough. If you're going to go sporty, then go all in and do it well. Unlike you, I think the current IS was quite wonderful when it debuted in 2013. I loved mine. But then they went stale when the competition kept moving. My thoughts, anyway.
Unlike many on here, I have no issue with Lexus selling "fancied up Toyotas" en masse. I think the new ES is fantastic, and I still think the RX and NX are great (though the RX-L is a disappointment for interior space, which is why I have a Highlander). What I would like to see is Lexus using those models to finance their efforts on slower selling vehicles. These vehicles are important for brand image.
No, it's too late for the current IS and GS to avoid that fate. My hope is new management will start heading in the right direction (as I see it) to avoid doing this again well into the future.
What is your source that the "sport-oriented buyer-base, nationwide, is shrinking"? I don't agree with that assessment at all. The spell of hard luck that Lexus may be facing in some products is not because they went in a more sporty direction, but because they didn't go far enough. If you're going to go sporty, then go all in and do it well. Unlike you, I think the current IS was quite wonderful when it debuted in 2013. I loved mine. But then they went stale when the competition kept moving. My thoughts, anyway.
Unlike many on here, I have no issue with Lexus selling "fancied up Toyotas" en masse. I think the new ES is fantastic, and I still think the RX and NX are great (though the RX-L is a disappointment for interior space, which is why I have a Highlander). What I would like to see is Lexus using those models to finance their efforts on slower selling vehicles. These vehicles are important for brand image.
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Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: New York
Lexus needs EVERYTHING at this point.
Their best car is LC500 but it has very poor marketing, lack of customization etc.
The 3.5 Turbo V6 should be the base engine on it. The F variant has been put on hold possibly canceled which would have had Twin turbo V8.
Lexus has Zero consistency in its products except having them grow stale.
Germans have 7yr model cycles with refresh in yr 3or4. They all have sport trims, high performance variant, luxury variants, vast engine options etc.
Lexus is so far behind at this point and brand image with young ppl is just its boring brand.
I remember when they launched F brand - there were going to be accessories like springs, exhaust, brakes etc. Ofcourse all that needs commitment and funding. F brand like Ltuned before it is dead. I feel bad for the engineers because its not the lack of talent- its poor leadership and penny pinching by beancounters that are focused on next quarter earnings rather than building a brand that can pay dividends for decades.
3 things really showed that Lexus / Toyota has no shame and cares little for enthusiasts or brand legacy:
1) IS-F not getting 2nd generation after building loyal following and then waiting almost 10yrs to bring another F sedan that was much more $$$
2) using F engine and putting it into non-F car-LC500
3) Supra being 90% BMW
Their best car is LC500 but it has very poor marketing, lack of customization etc.
The 3.5 Turbo V6 should be the base engine on it. The F variant has been put on hold possibly canceled which would have had Twin turbo V8.
Lexus has Zero consistency in its products except having them grow stale.
Germans have 7yr model cycles with refresh in yr 3or4. They all have sport trims, high performance variant, luxury variants, vast engine options etc.
Lexus is so far behind at this point and brand image with young ppl is just its boring brand.
I remember when they launched F brand - there were going to be accessories like springs, exhaust, brakes etc. Ofcourse all that needs commitment and funding. F brand like Ltuned before it is dead. I feel bad for the engineers because its not the lack of talent- its poor leadership and penny pinching by beancounters that are focused on next quarter earnings rather than building a brand that can pay dividends for decades.
3 things really showed that Lexus / Toyota has no shame and cares little for enthusiasts or brand legacy:
1) IS-F not getting 2nd generation after building loyal following and then waiting almost 10yrs to bring another F sedan that was much more $$$
2) using F engine and putting it into non-F car-LC500
3) Supra being 90% BMW
