bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Link to actual jd power results

http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...lity-study-iqs

FatherTo1

Hope this gets the attention of the higher ups in Toyota. As much as I love our 2013 LS, just two weeks ago I mentioned to a coworker that Lexus quality isn't what it used to be as she was considering a Lexus in the near future. I didn't like that the ambient light bulb (an LED no less) had already burnt out and I just went to the dealership this past Monday to have them fix an issue with the glove compartment door not opening all the way. They didn't charge as it was probably related to the last time they touched the car when inspecting the ambient light but it's still my time. I find the paint quality also exhibits more orange peel and chips easily too. Our LS doesn't produce any rattles that I have noticed yet but there is a strange mechanical whirring/faint clicking sound coming from behind the dash. I can only hear it when the radio is off. I was also infuriated by how the passenger seat memory managed to catch the seat belt buckle and jam the metal end into the side bolster of the seat. This happened just two weeks into our ownership and left a deep divot when I discovered it the next morning. Thank goodness I was able to massage it back out with some patience and a blowdryer, but stuff like this never happened across dozens of previous Toyota/Lexus.

I am saddened that Lexus has fallen from its perch atop the quality standings. I also agree that it is not all due to the infotainment gremlins. Modern cars are indeed highly complex pieces of machinery but automakers still find a way to set themselves apart. Sadly, Lexus is not the absolute pinnacle of quality. I'm still a fan of the LS, but can't say I'm a fan of the brand as a whole anymore.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I also findthe rankings laughable with mazda and audi below jeep and lexus well below volkswagon

peteharvey

Very true Steve.
4GS is the only firmly coil sprung Lexus I have owned.
My wife's old 2006-13 2IS250 could easily be interpreted by many inexperienced people to also be firmly sprung, but it was not firmly sprung - the old 2IS250 was very firmly "damped" only.

Like you say, I didn't find any creaks and rattles in 2016 & 2017 6.5ES, and I can't imagine too many creaks/rattles developing on this particular model over time.
I've not driven LS before.
If you're finding creaks/rattles in your latest ES/LS etc, then there are certainly other factors at play, like quality control - as you say.

However, just be careful with the damping.
Dampers are the correct term for shock absorbers.
Even though they are called shock absorbers, they actually don't absorb any shock at all; only the: tires, coil springs, roll bars, bushings and suspension subframe mounts actually absorb shock.

Damper/shock absorbers use "two-way" valving.
Dampers/shock absorbers usually have a large valve opening on compression that provides minimal resistance to oil flow on bump.
However, there is usually a very small valve opening on "rebound" such that oil is forced through a tiny orifice, to convert motion into heat, which is dissipated into the atmosphere.
Thus, dampers/shockies only control the body from floatiness by converting the bobbing up and down motion into heat.
Without dampers/shock absorbers, the vehicle would continue to bob up and down, until the vertical oscillating motion energy is dissipated by the internal friction between the molecules in the coil spring...

mmarshall

That is a sure sign that vehicles are getting too complex in the number of controls, functions, and how those functions/controls are used. One should not have to have a college degree, or have to read (and learn) several hundred pages of an Owners' Manual to do simple things on a dash or console.

If customers are, in fact, complaining about this, then IMO they have a right to....it is something legitimate.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

that's a shame. i hope this will prompt lexus to up their game another notch to get back the title. right or not, reliability has always been something that lexus dust everyone else in the industry since they started in 1989.

i do have to say their lexus infotainment system hasn't been that impressive. overall i still think they make very reliable cars, but others have caught up a lot

get it done, lexus!

SW17LS

Thats an issue I also have, the glove box slams down. They tried to fix it once but the fix didn't stick. I always hate to take it in for stuff like that out of fear they will screw something up. It's still a great car, but it's not heads and shoulders above the competition anymore when it comes to quality, others have improved and they've slipped also.

As as for the paint, that surprises me. One thing my LS460 has is the smoothest, most incredible paint job I've ever had on a Lexus, markedly better than even my prior LS sedans. The paint chips easily, but they always have, that's why I got the clear bra this time.

When new sure. My 2010 ES had some rattles though, no reason to expect the next gen ES wouldn't either, and they've discussed them in that forum.

Im surprised you've never driven the LS given how focused you are on a compliant suspension. It's on a whole other level when it comes to ride and refinement from the rest of the lineup.

sears1234

totally agree.

My new mercedes e400 has very firm suspension, it runs very very solid and quiet.

FatherTo1

The previous owner also had the clear bra installed on our car. That definitely has helped, but just bad luck has led to pieces of asphalt being kicked up at freeway speeds and chipping a spot above the windshield, edge of the hood, a spot on the fender, and somehow a decent size chip from above the rear license plate. The Nebula Gray color is marvelous but the paint doesn't look perfectly smooth when I look at how images and lines reflect off the surface. It is not any worse than my previous vehicles, but also isn't noticeably better.

Oh, another indicator of less-than-Lexus-like quality is the clicky map and menu buttons on the RTC. They do not exude that silky smooth action of past Lexuses. The Map button feels stiff and cheap on this flagship. Still, I am more emotionally attached to our LS than any past car and that has allowed me to overlook some quibbles but it is clear Lexus doesn't build them as well as they used to or cared to build. Considering that my perception is based on a 2013 model, it doesn't surprise me that there is a downward trend manifesting in owner surveys now. Hopefully the LC and LS 500 can correct that but those are only two cars. Lexus needs to get motivated and passionate about quality again across the lineup and not just try to wow consumers on looks. What is underneath still counts a great deal.

webra

I worry for Lexus for these reasons:

1. Abdication of class leadership in any one area
2. Trading performance for reliability with ancient powetrains, and disappointing new turbo ones
3. Counter intuitive Infotainment systems
4. Prius tech (great, but they gave up hybrid leadership to the recent German offerings across the range...multi stage hybrid only available on LC/LS and mixed reports anyhow)
5. Ergonomics (generally a mess of too many buttons, no airplay)
6. Alfa Gulia?

It seems that the daring (Alfa), ambitious (Koreans), and aspirational (Mazda) are the ones to watch, along with Audi (seems to be climbing in various surveys), while Lexus/Toyota seems really bogged down for some reason.
The hope on the horizon may be the Supra, which, if the spy pics are to be believed, has the right mix of parts from both sides (Toyota shell and up to date German attributes).

FatherTo1

Completely agree with this. It has been 20 years and Toyota has milked the Synergy Hybrid MG1/MG2 system for way too long. They were a pioneer and have allowed everyone to catch up. Perhaps Toyota is just stretching resources too thin with so many models to support and pursuing that top manufacturer title some years ago. What happened to that Japanese manufacturing pride? Or is this a by-product of globalization? I still consider Toyota/Lexus reliable but not to the same degree as before. I may really start to consider other brands for my wife's next car at this rate.

webra

Me too. They seem to say we will do our own thing and not compete with the Germans. Fine. So now, with Alfa, Kia, Hyundai and Mazda (potentially) going after the establishment, those become very interesting alternatives to Lexus. And Audis are driving better and at least in reports, seem to be better than the German norm for reliability.

Some trade durability for performance. Lexus trades performance for durability. Both are compromises here as I see it.

peteharvey

Yes, I heard that the LS NVH is on another level.

When I was a teenager, I was into coupes like the Mazda RX-7 and MX-6 etc.
In my 20's, I went for sub-compacts like the 323, and later, the Civic.
In my 30's, I went for compacts.
The past two decades, I went for midsizers that cruise well, but I can throw around corners and go for the occasional burn.
I will keep an eye out for the full size LS over the next decade.

Be careful with Benz E400 suspension.
Are you using standard E400 soft floaty suspension on 19" or even 20" alloys with low profile tires, or do you have the AMG Sports suspension?

There are two major components: the coil springs, and the dampers [shock absorbers].
Benz tend to use soft coils around firm dampers in their AMG Sports suspension.

In other words, the soft coils result in more compliance and compression for a smoother and more cosseting ride, but there is also more roll and weight transfer to the outside wheels such that the car "two-wheels" on the outside tires, resulting in a vehicle that doesn't handle as pin sharp to directional changes, nor as much terminal grip as its competitor the Lexus 4GS.

Meanwhile, the AMG Sport's firm dampers ensure that the vehicle does not float, ie weave up and down after hitting a bump; in other words, there is more body control.
Float is scientifically a low frequency of vertical oscillation with a slow rate of cyclic movements that is perceived as comfortable.
On the other hand, firm dampers result in a high frequency of vertical oscillation, and such rapid cyclic movements are physically tiring.

By contrast, the Lexus 4GS has both firm coils springs, and firm dampers - and this produces a flatter body attitude, with less weight transfer to the outside wheels for more four-wheel grip, hence greater agility, faster changes in direction, and more terminal grip, but at a cost to the ride, because the coils springs are taut and less compliant.

Personally, I prefer soft coils around soft dampers like the old 2005-12 3GS - which my staff drive daily.
The old 3GS is both compliant and floaty.
When we switch its electronic dampers to Sports, we end up with a soft coil spring but firmly damped ride.
Presently, there is no perfect suspension system; it is all a compromize...
_

Freds430

For me initial quality is just not that important. It looks at issues for the first 90 days when the vehicle is under warranty. I put much more weight on the J D Power dependability study which looks at a vehicle at the three year period. here Lexus has been #1 for six years in a row. Consumer Reports also has Lexus #1 in dependability. next in importance is cost of maintenance. Here Lexus is the third least expensive to maintain behind its cousins Toyota and Scion. I am dumbfounded when someone buys a luxury car and than has to continue to pay more money to keep it running. In addition when you pay more money for a car, I guess the manufacturer assumes you will pay more for maintenance.

http://twocents.lifehacker.com/the-c...ver-1781639773

GS69

http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...tudy-key-stats

Infographic: 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study Key Stats

June 21, 2017The J.D. Power U.S. Initial Quality StudySM (IQS), published since 1987, examines problems experienced by original vehicle owners during the 1st 90 days of ownership. Initial quality is determined by the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality.

This year’s study shows an 8% improvement in quality. Once again, the Korean brands outperform their Japanese, domestic, and European competitors. And, Kia ranks highest overall for a 2nd consecutive year.

In the infographic that follows, we present some key statistics and findings from the 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study.