not really. if you add ES/GS sales, you'd probably get an average selling price in the 40s, WAY, WAY below the average selling price of E series. not dissing the ES, as it has its niche, well placed. not sporty, not fancy, but classy, comfortable, quiet, and a good value for the boomer set and realtors (same thing ).

 

Just as well the ES/GS combo sold 88,000 units last year to E's 49,000 units thanks to the ES/GS combo being cheaper.

There is no exact perfect comparison.

For example, the RX outsells the pants off the GLE SUV, but then the RX is considerably cheaper too.

There is no perfect comparison.

E, GLE, GS, ES & RX are all very good cars, with very little between them; pick the one that suits you best really....

 

then imho it's not a comparison. might as well look at the overall number of cars sold by a brand.

es is not gs and e and 5 level. size maybe (actually it's bigger than gs), but i see it as entry level luxury

 

We can't directly compare E Class with GS sales, because the ES is in the way, and true, it is lower priced.
If we can't compare E Class with ES/GS combo, then we can't compare GLE with RX either, because RX is cheaper than GLE.

 

You literally just said what he did using different words.

 

Because it is

The ES has long been criticized for not driving its rear wheels, but it has a unique role in the Lexus stable. Only $775 separates the $37,325 IS from the $38100 ES, and $7,515 more for the $45,615 GS. Yet the ES is complete bargain for its size at 193.3in. The IS and GS are 183.7in and 192.1in respectively. So entry level price for midsize size. Some interior aspects like rear seat leg room and trunk space rival the short-wheelbase LS. The IS, GS, and LS represent the core RWD models to combat the 3, 5, 7, A4, A6, A8, C, E, S respectively. The core RWD models may garner all the press, but each of these Makes offers alternative sedans like the ES does to Lexus with the CLA, A3, CLS, A7, 6GC. The ES may not be as 'sexy' or chić as some of the aforementioned, but it is Lexus's best selling sedan for a reason. All these automakers do something similar, but different.

 

No one is criticizing the ES. But peteharvey originally said we need to compare E sales with the sum of ES and GS but has now agreed that's not a valid comparison.

 

The ES is unique in the luxury lineup. Neither Audi nor BMW nor MB have a mid-size entry-level vehicle in their lineup. The role of the ES can only be understood by looking at Toyota and Lexus together.

The ES is meant for those people who have owned the FWD Camry or Avalon but want to move up to a luxury brand, but either cannot afford or do not want to buy a RWD vehicle such as the IS, GS or LS. This position may have limited markets (North American, China but not Western Europe) so Lexus only sells it where there is such a market.

 

You might be surprised to know that I know several people who have traded E Classes, 5 Series and GS sedans in on the ES. I can think of 5 off the top of my head. These people aren't car people, and to them the trade was a lateral move. None of them felt they were stepping down to the ES.

 

We regularly compare RX with GLE Class sales, and sure RX is cheaper, such that it is only fitting that RX outsells the pants off the GLE Class.
In the same way, I compare Hyundai Genesis 30,000 units per year sales, and it is only fitting that they sell that many considering how cheap they are.

In the same way, I realize it's a loose comparison, but we must add ES to GS for 88,000 units last year to 49,000 E Class sales.

Because the ES is an odd inclusion in the Lexus lineup, there is no way we can just ignore its sales.
In the same way, true E Class sales must also include the CLS sales, but CLS won't sell that many.

That's why at the end of the day, I consider all these cars essentially "equally" good, but in different ways.
No one is really superior to the other. Just different.

It's amazing how people have tunnel vision on turbos & 0-60; all they see in an engine is 0-60.
I've driven 528i, 535i & E400's a number of times, and the throttle & torque curve just doesn't feel nice and flat like an atmospheric engine, yet the 0-60 guys dominate with their opinions all the time.

At the end of the day, I presently believe that atmospheric vs turbos are Even Stevens - neither are prefect, each have their pros & cons, horses for courses & each to their own.

The new 2017 E Class is more about being different, than actually superior overall; to be actually superior overall, they would have to get rid of all, if not most of their negatives, and no car is perfect, because car design is such a compromize.

.

 

'equally good', 'different', adding sales of two models to compare to one model... have at it... makes no sense to me.

 

I don't think I would ever confuse or cross-shop an E-class with an ES. Is Toyota, Lexus? Or is it not? The Germans are unique in that they have played in a category unique to them for a long time. They only have their main, decades old brands. Sure they don't have an ES/Avalon but maybe they don't care. The ES will never be mistaken for a Nurburgring blaster. The GS is a whole other animal especially in its F version. So really they're all different cars.

Blending numbers and making the bean counters happy with combined sales for an ES and GS seems odd. If you're some rich buyer who doesn't know the difference between an RX/ES or GS and then hop over to the MB dealership and look at an E class - yeah that's says more about you as a buyer then what the cars are really about. But that's up to you and your wallet. Doesn't make no mind to car people. Or sales guys.

There's a reason that AMG has C class and E class cars that are capable of running the German autobahns and the "Ring".

 

So far, Benz has been able to stay ahead of the competition including BMW and Audi mainly through Mercedes' consistently styling, and more different styling at that, plus consistent interior space, and comfort.
Styling is Benz' greatest asset!
Benz tend to look nice, and they also tend to look more different than other motor vehicles on the road - something that neither BMW nor Audi, let alone Lexus can match.
Benz' consistent performance in these areas builds up a reputation over time.

Thus, at times Benz styling can be terrible like the 1995-2002 E Class, and the 2009-2016 E Class.
At times, their engines like the four cylinder Kompressor and the 90 degree V6's based on V8 block has been lethargic and harsh.
Yet the Benz still sell, and they have managed to keep ahead of their competition.

.

 

no kidding, i don't even know how to reply... umm... ditto?

my post wasn't a criticism of the es at all. i actually think the es (and rx) has been brilliant ideas for lexus, arguably among the most successful moves by lexus from few perspective. price point is great, huge bang for the bucks given the status. but i see zero reason to make it comparable to other cars

you and i have very different friends, what can i say? going from 5/e/gs to es is not a lateral move, price point makes it pretty clear already. and even down the amenities and materials on the cars the es is steps behind. if people can't tell the difference, i don't think they can tell the difference when stepping from LS to GS either

another way to look at it, if lexus takes away the es now, i would bet my $1 that the sales of gs will not jump up to current gs + es combined, not even at a discount. so how's that an equal choice?

and getting back on subject, yes, that's how strong the e (and 5) has established themselves among customers. it's almost a loyalty thing. it's something that lexus should be thirsty about, something i really hope one day they make it

 

I'm not saying it is a lateral move, but to these people they don't understand or care about the benefits the RWD platform cars give them, and their previous cars were old enough where they cost new about what an ES cost new now, so to them it was a lateral move.

people can't tell the difference going from the LS to the GS either. Most people are not at all enthusiasts.

BTW, all of those people love the or ES'es.