ToMoCo's CUV/SUV Range is Downright Boring
12-03-13, 11:19 AM
#1
ToMoCo's CUV/SUV Range is Downright Boring
This will be a bit of an open discussion/rant, but driving to work this morning, I realized that Toyota has a...well...downright boring lineup of SUVs and CUVs. Why is that?
The V6 Rav4 was considered one of Toyota's only "fun to drive" products but it has been discontinued.
The FJ Cruiser is dead.
The 4Runner used to drive like a truck - firm and somewhat sporty - until they made the newer generation feel like an LS 430. Same for GX 470 --> GX 460.
The Highlander is even more isolated and uninspiring to drive, though another one is around the corner. Same for 2RX --> 3RX.
The Sequoia, Land Cruiser and LX are much too large and heavy to ever be any amount of fun, though I do honestly consider the LX to be the finest SUV on the market, at any price point.
I bring this up because in the last few years, Toyota has done a pretty decent job of delivering products that are fun to drive - FRS, Lexus' F and F Sport, GS, IS, even the Camry SE is a pretty good car on the road. What about people who need or want a little ground clearance?
I'm not saying that I expect to be drifting around corners in an RX anytime soon, but Toyota quite literally offers nothing for a sporty or performance-minded driver. The 2RX wasn't exactly a hoot to drive, but it was light on it's feet and the V6 made it spirited at times. The 3RX put on 500 lbs and any of that fun was gone. Rav4 lost the V6, and the 4Runner went from feeling like a rugged truck to something more of a baby Land Cruiser.
With Toyota's increased focus on driver enjoyment...why are SUVs and CUVs being neglected? I've been mentioning for a while that I'd like to see a Lexus X5 competitor based on the GS chassis, and the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. X5, Range Rover and Porsche are eating this market up right now and it seems to be getting hotter and hotter.
Furthermore, I think Toyota would have a pretty good product if they came up with a "hot" version of the Rav4 or possible redesigned Venza...something with 240+hp, AWD and a few inches of ground clearance. The guy who used to drive a WRX or FRS, but now has a family, really doesn't have many options outside of the Forester XT or maybe Ford Explorer Sport? As the market of performance-minded premium SUVs grows, I feel that there is another market coming for performance-minded mainstream CUVs/SUVs as well. I'm envisioning something like a poor man's Audi Q5 RS or Porsche Cayenne. I think a boosted 4 cylinder or even the GR V6 would make a fine choice for something like this.
Am I crazy here? I wonder if Toyota has plans for anything similar...
The V6 Rav4 was considered one of Toyota's only "fun to drive" products but it has been discontinued.
The FJ Cruiser is dead.
The 4Runner used to drive like a truck - firm and somewhat sporty - until they made the newer generation feel like an LS 430. Same for GX 470 --> GX 460.
The Highlander is even more isolated and uninspiring to drive, though another one is around the corner. Same for 2RX --> 3RX.
The Sequoia, Land Cruiser and LX are much too large and heavy to ever be any amount of fun, though I do honestly consider the LX to be the finest SUV on the market, at any price point.
I bring this up because in the last few years, Toyota has done a pretty decent job of delivering products that are fun to drive - FRS, Lexus' F and F Sport, GS, IS, even the Camry SE is a pretty good car on the road. What about people who need or want a little ground clearance?
I'm not saying that I expect to be drifting around corners in an RX anytime soon, but Toyota quite literally offers nothing for a sporty or performance-minded driver. The 2RX wasn't exactly a hoot to drive, but it was light on it's feet and the V6 made it spirited at times. The 3RX put on 500 lbs and any of that fun was gone. Rav4 lost the V6, and the 4Runner went from feeling like a rugged truck to something more of a baby Land Cruiser.
With Toyota's increased focus on driver enjoyment...why are SUVs and CUVs being neglected? I've been mentioning for a while that I'd like to see a Lexus X5 competitor based on the GS chassis, and the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. X5, Range Rover and Porsche are eating this market up right now and it seems to be getting hotter and hotter.
Furthermore, I think Toyota would have a pretty good product if they came up with a "hot" version of the Rav4 or possible redesigned Venza...something with 240+hp, AWD and a few inches of ground clearance. The guy who used to drive a WRX or FRS, but now has a family, really doesn't have many options outside of the Forester XT or maybe Ford Explorer Sport? As the market of performance-minded premium SUVs grows, I feel that there is another market coming for performance-minded mainstream CUVs/SUVs as well. I'm envisioning something like a poor man's Audi Q5 RS or Porsche Cayenne. I think a boosted 4 cylinder or even the GR V6 would make a fine choice for something like this.
Am I crazy here? I wonder if Toyota has plans for anything similar...
12-03-13, 11:27 AM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
This will be a bit of an open discussion/rant, but driving to work this morning, I realized that Toyota has a...well...downright boring lineup of SUVs and CUVs. Why is that?
The V6 Rav4 was considered one of Toyota's only "fun to drive" products but it has been discontinued.
The FJ Cruiser is dead.
The 4Runner used to drive like a truck - firm and somewhat sporty - until they made the newer generation feel like an LS 430. Same for GX 470 --> GX 460.
The Highlander is even more isolated and uninspiring to drive, though another one is around the corner. Same for 2RX --> 3RX.
The Sequoia, Land Cruiser and LX are much too large and heavy to ever be any amount of fun, though I do honestly consider the LX to be the finest SUV on the market, at any price point.
I bring this up because in the last few years, Toyota has done a pretty decent job of delivering products that are fun to drive - FRS, Lexus' F and F Sport, GS, IS, even the Camry SE is a pretty good car on the road. What about people who need or want a little ground clearance?
I'm not saying that I expect to be drifting around corners in an RX anytime soon, but Toyota quite literally offers nothing for a sporty or performance-minded driver. The 2RX wasn't exactly a hoot to drive, but it was light on it's feet and the V6 made it spirited at times. The 3RX put on 500 lbs and any of that fun was gone. Rav4 lost the V6, and the 4Runner went from feeling like a rugged truck to something more of a baby Land Cruiser.
With Toyota's increased focus on driver enjoyment...why are SUVs and CUVs being neglected? I've been mentioning for a while that I'd like to see a Lexus X5 competitor based on the GS chassis, and the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. X5, Range Rover and Porsche are eating this market up right now and it seems to be getting hotter and hotter.
Furthermore, I think Toyota would have a pretty good product if they came up with a "hot" version of the Rav4 or possible redesigned Venza...something with 240+hp, AWD and a few inches of ground clearance. The guy who used to drive a WRX or FRS, but now has a family, really doesn't have many options outside of the Forester XT or maybe Ford Explorer Sport? As the market of performance-minded premium SUVs grows, I feel that there is another market coming for performance-minded mainstream CUVs/SUVs as well. I'm envisioning something like a poor man's Audi Q5 RS or Porsche Cayenne. I think a boosted 4 cylinder or even the GR V6 would make a fine choice for something like this.
Am I crazy here? I wonder if Toyota has plans for anything similar...
The V6 Rav4 was considered one of Toyota's only "fun to drive" products but it has been discontinued.
The FJ Cruiser is dead.
The 4Runner used to drive like a truck - firm and somewhat sporty - until they made the newer generation feel like an LS 430. Same for GX 470 --> GX 460.
The Highlander is even more isolated and uninspiring to drive, though another one is around the corner. Same for 2RX --> 3RX.
The Sequoia, Land Cruiser and LX are much too large and heavy to ever be any amount of fun, though I do honestly consider the LX to be the finest SUV on the market, at any price point.
I bring this up because in the last few years, Toyota has done a pretty decent job of delivering products that are fun to drive - FRS, Lexus' F and F Sport, GS, IS, even the Camry SE is a pretty good car on the road. What about people who need or want a little ground clearance?
I'm not saying that I expect to be drifting around corners in an RX anytime soon, but Toyota quite literally offers nothing for a sporty or performance-minded driver. The 2RX wasn't exactly a hoot to drive, but it was light on it's feet and the V6 made it spirited at times. The 3RX put on 500 lbs and any of that fun was gone. Rav4 lost the V6, and the 4Runner went from feeling like a rugged truck to something more of a baby Land Cruiser.
With Toyota's increased focus on driver enjoyment...why are SUVs and CUVs being neglected? I've been mentioning for a while that I'd like to see a Lexus X5 competitor based on the GS chassis, and the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. X5, Range Rover and Porsche are eating this market up right now and it seems to be getting hotter and hotter.
Furthermore, I think Toyota would have a pretty good product if they came up with a "hot" version of the Rav4 or possible redesigned Venza...something with 240+hp, AWD and a few inches of ground clearance. The guy who used to drive a WRX or FRS, but now has a family, really doesn't have many options outside of the Forester XT or maybe Ford Explorer Sport? As the market of performance-minded premium SUVs grows, I feel that there is another market coming for performance-minded mainstream CUVs/SUVs as well. I'm envisioning something like a poor man's Audi Q5 RS or Porsche Cayenne. I think a boosted 4 cylinder or even the GR V6 would make a fine choice for something like this.
Am I crazy here? I wonder if Toyota has plans for anything similar...
I agree Toyota SUV lineup is boring(Do they even offer the X-runner Tacoma anymore??) but that is what works for them. It was sad to see the fast Rav-4 V-6 gone.
Even with the Germans many small SUV offerings, they are not that fun.
Now I do believe tastes continue to change and offering sportier SUVs with Utility will be a growth spot. Note the new Audi SQ5 and Range Rover "R"s that are coming.
From Toyota? Don't hold your breathe. Hybrids will come first.
I honestly think people might need to consider that the fun Honda/Toyota of the 80s/90s are over and not coming back.
12-03-13, 11:51 AM
#3
having a "hot" SUV does not make much sense at all... And I dont think their real SUVs are boring at all... they are not going fast through corners but they are not boring (GX, LX, 4Runner).
Highlander is family SUV so yeah, it is very boring. Rav4 is a bit smaller so a bit less but still boring. They are family cars really.
Is NX going to be less boring because of 2.0t? Maybe, it is still not going to drive 1/2 as good as 3IS though.
Highlander is family SUV so yeah, it is very boring. Rav4 is a bit smaller so a bit less but still boring. They are family cars really.
Is NX going to be less boring because of 2.0t? Maybe, it is still not going to drive 1/2 as good as 3IS though.
12-03-13, 12:50 PM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
porsche would beg to differ. 
completely right. 
grown ups buy suvs to haul family and stuff, and it's much easier for family and stuff to get in and out than in a sedan. cuvs are more maneuverable, easier to park, better on gas, etc. and often more 'fun' looking. sedans still sell well of course, but all the momentum/growth is in suv/cuvs.
Highlander is family SUV so yeah, it is very boring. Rav4 is a bit smaller so a bit less but still boring. They are family cars really.
grown ups buy suvs to haul family and stuff, and it's much easier for family and stuff to get in and out than in a sedan. cuvs are more maneuverable, easier to park, better on gas, etc. and often more 'fun' looking. sedans still sell well of course, but all the momentum/growth is in suv/cuvs.
12-03-13, 12:58 PM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
about the original post... besides dedicated sporty models like frs, toyota is a very conservative company, and fiscally conscious and very focused. the rav4 has the 4 banger only because it helps them keep costs lower and it's "good enough" for the vast majority of consumers looking for an affordable, well built cuv. i do personally find it boring though, but i'm not the target customer.
the highlander is a nice vehicle, but the v6 still only comes with a 5 speed auto, an obvious cost-cutting move that's kind of insulting to consumers. it's also lacking options available on other suvs these days.
so while boring is ok to me, i think the feature set is quite weak.
the highlander is a nice vehicle, but the v6 still only comes with a 5 speed auto, an obvious cost-cutting move that's kind of insulting to consumers. it's also lacking options available on other suvs these days.
so while boring is ok to me, i think the feature set is quite weak.
12-03-13, 01:16 PM
#6
Lexus Test Driver
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They seemed to have addressed 90% of my driveability complaints in the new RAV4, but then dropped the V6 that made those complaints matter. Like a "Sport" mode for the 4WD to help you get out of a corner without understeering as much, or torque steer just passing someone in 2nd or 3rd gear. Okay they fixed it great. But only a NA 4-cylinder now and no V6. WTF???
12-03-13, 01:32 PM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by MPLexus301
The FJ Cruiser is dead.
It is still listed on Toyota's American-market web-site for sale. And, its looks, compared to most other Toyota SUVs, tend to keep you awake...as does its paint colors.
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12-03-13, 03:58 PM
#9
To be honest the only SUVs (and I mean SUV with UTILITY) I find fun are the previous X5 and the Cayenne and new RRS. Everything else no matter how they look are are marketed are not fun to drive, they all drive pretty similar, like cars. The market has spoken and that is what they want.
I agree Toyota SUV lineup is boring(Do they even offer the X-runner Tacoma anymore??) but that is what works for them. It was sad to see the fast Rav-4 V-6 gone.
Even with the Germans many small SUV offerings, they are not that fun.
Now I do believe tastes continue to change and offering sportier SUVs with Utility will be a growth spot. Note the new Audi SQ5 and Range Rover "R"s that are coming.
From Toyota? Don't hold your breathe. Hybrids will come first.
I honestly think people might need to consider that the fun Honda/Toyota of the 80s/90s are over and not coming back.
I agree Toyota SUV lineup is boring(Do they even offer the X-runner Tacoma anymore??) but that is what works for them. It was sad to see the fast Rav-4 V-6 gone.
Even with the Germans many small SUV offerings, they are not that fun.
Now I do believe tastes continue to change and offering sportier SUVs with Utility will be a growth spot. Note the new Audi SQ5 and Range Rover "R"s that are coming.
From Toyota? Don't hold your breathe. Hybrids will come first.
I honestly think people might need to consider that the fun Honda/Toyota of the 80s/90s are over and not coming back.
12-03-13, 05:57 PM
#11
Toyota right now doesn't have the right unibody frames or powertrains to support a good sporty SUV. Sad that Chrysler can slap together a better CUV than Toyota. Grand Cherokee and Durango are both phenomenal and are selling pretty well.
12-04-13, 08:04 AM
#12
having a "hot" SUV does not make much sense at all... And I dont think their real SUVs are boring at all... they are not going fast through corners but they are not boring (GX, LX, 4Runner).
Highlander is family SUV so yeah, it is very boring. Rav4 is a bit smaller so a bit less but still boring. They are family cars really.
Is NX going to be less boring because of 2.0t? Maybe, it is still not going to drive 1/2 as good as 3IS though.
Highlander is family SUV so yeah, it is very boring. Rav4 is a bit smaller so a bit less but still boring. They are family cars really.
Is NX going to be less boring because of 2.0t? Maybe, it is still not going to drive 1/2 as good as 3IS though.
I personally owned a 3rd generation 4Runner and my bf owns a 2006 SR5 V6. To me, they both drive like trucks - firm, sporty, predictable, but refined. When I drove the 5th gen during my test drive process this summer, I was literally shocked. Once again, like the GX, the 4Runner lost any sense of feeling or tossability, and has become a rolling tomb. The steering is so loose it's ridiculous. I decided to check out a few 4Runner forums to see what other folks' opinions were, and the VAST majority of them highly dislike the newer 4Runner because of how it rides and handles. Toyota took four generations of history and bastardized the forumla, IMO.
Now, LX and Land Cruiser I love because they're so incredibly solid, well built, quiet and smooth...exactly what I think a full size SUV should be. I'm not really looking for any amount of performance here and don't think other folks are either.
porsche would beg to differ.
completely right. grown ups buy suvs to haul family and stuff, and it's much easier for family and stuff to get in and out than in a sedan. cuvs are more maneuverable, easier to park, better on gas, etc. and often more 'fun' looking. sedans still sell well of course, but all the momentum/growth is in suv/cuvs.
completely right.
grown ups buy suvs to haul family and stuff, and it's much easier for family and stuff to get in and out than in a sedan. cuvs are more maneuverable, easier to park, better on gas, etc. and often more 'fun' looking. sedans still sell well of course, but all the momentum/growth is in suv/cuvs.about the original post... besides dedicated sporty models like frs, toyota is a very conservative company, and fiscally conscious and very focused. the rav4 has the 4 banger only because it helps them keep costs lower and it's "good enough" for the vast majority of consumers looking for an affordable, well built cuv. i do personally find it boring though, but i'm not the target customer.
the highlander is a nice vehicle, but the v6 still only comes with a 5 speed auto, an obvious cost-cutting move that's kind of insulting to consumers. it's also lacking options available on other suvs these days.
so while boring is ok to me, i think the feature set is quite weak.
the highlander is a nice vehicle, but the v6 still only comes with a 5 speed auto, an obvious cost-cutting move that's kind of insulting to consumers. it's also lacking options available on other suvs these days.
so while boring is ok to me, i think the feature set is quite weak.
They seemed to have addressed 90% of my driveability complaints in the new RAV4, but then dropped the V6 that made those complaints matter. Like a "Sport" mode for the 4WD to help you get out of a corner without understeering as much, or torque steer just passing someone in 2nd or 3rd gear. Okay they fixed it great. But only a NA 4-cylinder now and no V6. WTF???
Aside from maybe the LX and Land Cruiser, Toyota doesn't have an SUV/CUV right now that is class leading, or even really close to it. RX 450h maybe?
