BMW - No Longer The Ultimate Driving Machine
03-24-13, 01:52 PM
#32
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I am trying to figure out whats the problem here. Obviously GS marketing is GS marketing and paid by Lexus who makes and sells GS. Lexus has to pay for any marketing materials be it independent testing lab or Motortrend.
Question here is if the message being sent is real or fake, right? So we check on Edmunds and Motortrend which we can correlate this with and they have same results.
So what exactly is the issue? AMCI claims are pretty much the same as what Edmunds and Motortrend have shown to us already, so I dont understand your point?
I am not sure why are you confused about anything I wrote. Apparently you think it is ok for GS350 to beat M5 in handling since M5 is built for Nurburgring and I find that funny.
Do you think that there is some 535i package that actually handles better than M5? And thus AMCI made some kind of package selection that hurts 535i handling? I mean it is kind of silly to question AMCI because every other magazine tells us same exact thing, so lets question Motortrend and Edmunds and every other mag that stated the same?
And reason I am saying drive it yourself is because pretty much everyone around here, and plenty are BMW owners, have said exactly the same thing when it comes to handling.
Question here is if the message being sent is real or fake, right? So we check on Edmunds and Motortrend which we can correlate this with and they have same results.
So what exactly is the issue? AMCI claims are pretty much the same as what Edmunds and Motortrend have shown to us already, so I dont understand your point?
I am not sure why are you confused about anything I wrote. Apparently you think it is ok for GS350 to beat M5 in handling since M5 is built for Nurburgring and I find that funny.
Do you think that there is some 535i package that actually handles better than M5? And thus AMCI made some kind of package selection that hurts 535i handling? I mean it is kind of silly to question AMCI because every other magazine tells us same exact thing, so lets question Motortrend and Edmunds and every other mag that stated the same?
And reason I am saying drive it yourself is because pretty much everyone around here, and plenty are BMW owners, have said exactly the same thing when it comes to handling.
As far as as handling, yes there are setups for lesser 5 Series that would perform better than an M5 in certain tests. The M5 has a heavy V8 sitting over its front wheels, so in slalom tests the M5 would be at a disadvantage, but that's why I assume that particular test was linked. Now that's funny, well actually kind of sad. Anyway your point has been made and I do not contest that the GS F is faster in the slalom than the M5 based upon the data that was presented here, Do you now for some reason disagree?
Wouldn't you like to see a test of the 2013 535 with the non-base suspension to see how it compares to the GS F? I'm not sure which magazines you are thinking of, but I haven't seen a single test of the 2013 535 with the MSposrt suspension. As I said already, I don't mind one iota that Lexus wins a perfrormance test over a BMW or any other brand for that matter. Good for Lexus. Better cars mean better competition. Better competition means better cars.
Anyway, since you like edmunds & MT, I'll use Edmunds since it actually prodvdes sufficient data about the cars they tested:
2013 GS F vs 2011 535 (with the DHP - not as good as the new suspension, but better than base)
0-60 5.9 vs 5.8 - GS F wins
1/4 mile 14.1 vs 14.3 - GS F wins
60-0 122 vs 110 - 535 wins
Slalom 66.7 vs 64.9 GS F wins
Skidpad 0.83 vs 0.84 - 535 wins
There you have it, the GS F won the majority of the tests, so the GS F wins. Was that so hard? Oh wait a minute, looking a the detailed data actually provided, the 535 has GoodYear Excellence Grand Touring tires while the GS F has Max Performance Dunlop Sport Maxx 050 - oops. Shame on BMW for providing a test car with bad tires. Don't worry, better tires would help the braking and skidpad which the 535 already won, but probably not enough to win the slalom - at worse it would be a draw. Hopefully you can live with that, otherwise please post why Edmunds in no longer a good source for data.
So what is my issue? Plain and simple, I just wanted to see the data from what I was led to believe by Lexus was based upon independent test results. I was disappointed to find little data and to find out the independent test was run by a company that does marketing for Lexus. I wouldn't call that independant at all. I am willing to give Motor Trend the benefit of the doubt, since they didn't actually test a 535 against the GS F, but rather recycled 535 test results from an ealier test when they only had 2012s available, but to base an advertising campaign on potentially dubious results is somewhat disappointing to me. They could have just as easily used MT's results. If you don't understand that nuance, then there's no point going forward in this discussion.
I joined this forum only to see if there was detailed data to support the Lexus advertising and I have found none, since I already subsribe to MT, C&D, & R&T you haven't told me anything new. As I have also said, I'm not in the market for a 300hp sedan, so driving one has no interest for me, I was just curious about an ad I saw in a magazine.
03-24-13, 02:21 PM
#33
And with that added luxury and comfort that will relinquish the Ultimate Driving Machine title in its segment, but that's ok. The previous E60 was to say the least, a disappointment in the refinement category but man did it out handle everything thrown at it. Fast forward to 2011 and the extra 400lbs has been a blessing and a curse. The new 5-Series is still more well rounded than the E60 which is progressive to the model line. The 5-Series isn't for everyone, but neither is the GS to others. Both are great cars, as is the competition. Most buyers will get what best suits them, which in this segment they're all winners.
03-24-13, 02:24 PM
#34
I'm not sure why you are so bothered by my posts. Cetainly the M5 and GS F have a different focus. Not sure why that would be funny. Do you think based on your slalom results the GS F will go around the Nurburgring faster than the M5? Since I have no data "I" would not claim one is faster than the other. How about you? BTW, good for Lexus if it does. Does it bother you that I can be both pro-Lexus and pro-BMW?
As far as as handling, yes there are setups for lesser 5 Series that would perform better than an M5 in certain tests. The M5 has a heavy V8 sitting over its front wheels, so in slalom tests the M5 would be at a disadvantage, but that's why I assume that particular test was linked. Now that's funny, well actually kind of sad. Anyway your point has been made and I do not contest that the GS F is faster in the slalom than the M5 based upon the data that was presented here, Do you now for some reason disagree?
Wouldn't you like to see a test of the 2013 535 with the non-base suspension to see how it compares to the GS F? I'm not sure which magazines you are thinking of, but I haven't seen a single test of the 2013 535 with the MSposrt suspension. As I said already, I don't mind one iota that Lexus wins a perfrormance test over a BMW or any other brand for that matter. Good for Lexus. Better cars mean better competition. Better competition means better cars.
Anyway, since you like edmunds & MT, I'll use Edmunds since it actually prodvdes sufficient data about the cars they tested:
2013 GS F vs 2011 535 (with the DHP - not as good as the new suspension, but better than base)
0-60 5.9 vs 5.8 - GS F wins
1/4 mile 14.1 vs 14.3 - GS F wins
60-0 122 vs 110 - 535 wins
Slalom 66.7 vs 64.9 GS F wins
Skidpad 0.83 vs 0.84 - 535 wins
There you have it, the GS F won the majority of the tests, so the GS F wins. Was that so hard? Oh wait a minute, looking a the detailed data actually provided, the 535 has GoodYear Excellence Grand Touring tires while the GS F has Max Performance Dunlop Sport Maxx 050 - oops. Shame on BMW for providing a test car with bad tires. Don't worry, better tires would help the braking and skidpad which the 535 already won, but probably not enough to win the slalom - at worse it would be a draw. Hopefully you can live with that, otherwise please post why Edmunds in no longer a good source for data.
So what is my issue? Plain and simple, I just wanted to see the data from what I was led to believe by Lexus was based upon independent test results. I was disappointed to find little data and to find out the independent test was run by a company that does marketing for Lexus. I wouldn't call that independant at all. I am willing to give Motor Trend the benefit of the doubt, since they didn't actually test a 535 against the GS F, but rather recycled 535 test results from an ealier test when they only had 2012s available, but to base an advertising campaign on potentially dubious results is somewhat disappointing to me. They could have just as easily used MT's results. If you don't understand that nuance, then there's no point going forward in this discussion.
I joined this forum only to see if there was detailed data to support the Lexus advertising and I have found none, since I already subsribe to MT, C&D, & R&T you haven't told me anything new. As I have also said, I'm not in the market for a 300hp sedan, so driving one has no interest for me, I was just curious about an ad I saw in a magazine.
As far as as handling, yes there are setups for lesser 5 Series that would perform better than an M5 in certain tests. The M5 has a heavy V8 sitting over its front wheels, so in slalom tests the M5 would be at a disadvantage, but that's why I assume that particular test was linked. Now that's funny, well actually kind of sad. Anyway your point has been made and I do not contest that the GS F is faster in the slalom than the M5 based upon the data that was presented here, Do you now for some reason disagree?
Wouldn't you like to see a test of the 2013 535 with the non-base suspension to see how it compares to the GS F? I'm not sure which magazines you are thinking of, but I haven't seen a single test of the 2013 535 with the MSposrt suspension. As I said already, I don't mind one iota that Lexus wins a perfrormance test over a BMW or any other brand for that matter. Good for Lexus. Better cars mean better competition. Better competition means better cars.
Anyway, since you like edmunds & MT, I'll use Edmunds since it actually prodvdes sufficient data about the cars they tested:
2013 GS F vs 2011 535 (with the DHP - not as good as the new suspension, but better than base)
0-60 5.9 vs 5.8 - GS F wins
1/4 mile 14.1 vs 14.3 - GS F wins
60-0 122 vs 110 - 535 wins
Slalom 66.7 vs 64.9 GS F wins
Skidpad 0.83 vs 0.84 - 535 wins
There you have it, the GS F won the majority of the tests, so the GS F wins. Was that so hard? Oh wait a minute, looking a the detailed data actually provided, the 535 has GoodYear Excellence Grand Touring tires while the GS F has Max Performance Dunlop Sport Maxx 050 - oops. Shame on BMW for providing a test car with bad tires. Don't worry, better tires would help the braking and skidpad which the 535 already won, but probably not enough to win the slalom - at worse it would be a draw. Hopefully you can live with that, otherwise please post why Edmunds in no longer a good source for data.
So what is my issue? Plain and simple, I just wanted to see the data from what I was led to believe by Lexus was based upon independent test results. I was disappointed to find little data and to find out the independent test was run by a company that does marketing for Lexus. I wouldn't call that independant at all. I am willing to give Motor Trend the benefit of the doubt, since they didn't actually test a 535 against the GS F, but rather recycled 535 test results from an ealier test when they only had 2012s available, but to base an advertising campaign on potentially dubious results is somewhat disappointing to me. They could have just as easily used MT's results. If you don't understand that nuance, then there's no point going forward in this discussion.
I joined this forum only to see if there was detailed data to support the Lexus advertising and I have found none, since I already subsribe to MT, C&D, & R&T you haven't told me anything new. As I have also said, I'm not in the market for a 300hp sedan, so driving one has no interest for me, I was just curious about an ad I saw in a magazine.
03-24-13, 02:41 PM
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Okay, I'm new to Lexus and yes I am talking about the Lexus GS F Sport, sorry about that, but thanks for what feels like the first constructive reply that I have received on this forum.
03-24-13, 02:55 PM
#36
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I joined this forum only to see if there was detailed data to support the Lexus advertising and I have found none, since I already subsribe to MT, C&D, & R&T you haven't told me anything new. As I have also said, I'm not in the market for a 300hp sedan, so driving one has no interest for me, I was just curious about an ad I saw in a magazine.
It seems you are accusing Lexus of cooking the books by hiring an independent lab to do this test for their ad
. Sure it looks like from your link that an AMCI marketing group was part of a Lexus event. If you'll google you'll find they do a lot of tests for other OEMs too. Chevy vs Dodge
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/04...r-testing.html
also used in their ad... I suspect Chevy paid for thest
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/...uture/hd2hd.do
Dodge wins a test too
http://blog.chryslergroupllc.com/blo...id=478&p=entry
Genesis testing
http://www.torquenews.com/1084/2013-...es-competition
Hey BMW gets good remarks from AMCI testing
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/NEW+RE......-a017927425
Found this googling, but a bit older
Testing
AMCI's unique testing programs help the world's automakers better understand their customer, their competition and the marketplace. Our methods are so scientific and our results so reliable, they are literally the industry standard - and have made AMCI the official testing company for J.D. Power. In over 20 years, not one claim bearing our name has ever been retracted due to legal challenge.
Our testing services begin with the objective Comparative Vehicle Assessment (CVA), during which a manufacture's car or truck is objectively analyzed alongside its competition. Superiorities uncovered during the CVA can then be turned into indisputable marketing advantages through Advertising Claim Certification, substantiated by AMCI's proprietary methodology.
Advertising Claim Certification
When you stake your brand's reputation on a competitive claim, it has to be true, and it has to be absolutely defensible. AMCI testing precision and methodology are backed by a track record of success stretching back over 20 years. In that time, we have certified hundreds of comparative claims for dozens of manufacturers - and not one has ever been retracted due to litigation. Should one of our claims be challenged, we offer turn-key counsel if legal action is ever taken regarding an AMCI-certified claim.
AMCI's unique testing programs help the world's automakers better understand their customer, their competition and the marketplace. Our methods are so scientific and our results so reliable, they are literally the industry standard - and have made AMCI the official testing company for J.D. Power. In over 20 years, not one claim bearing our name has ever been retracted due to legal challenge.
Our testing services begin with the objective Comparative Vehicle Assessment (CVA), during which a manufacture's car or truck is objectively analyzed alongside its competition. Superiorities uncovered during the CVA can then be turned into indisputable marketing advantages through Advertising Claim Certification, substantiated by AMCI's proprietary methodology.
Advertising Claim Certification
When you stake your brand's reputation on a competitive claim, it has to be true, and it has to be absolutely defensible. AMCI testing precision and methodology are backed by a track record of success stretching back over 20 years. In that time, we have certified hundreds of comparative claims for dozens of manufacturers - and not one has ever been retracted due to litigation. Should one of our claims be challenged, we offer turn-key counsel if legal action is ever taken regarding an AMCI-certified claim.
Are you right to be suspicious of an advertisement or any advertising claims? Yes.
Is AMCI hired by other OEMs to do similar tests? Yes.
Is there corroborating evidence that the test was mostly valid from other sources? Yes.
Should you expect to find the detailed test data and car options in the advertisement posted on CL? No.
Again, not quite sure what you were expecting to find.... sorry you don't find things constructive on Club Lexus but it seems you came here primarily wanting to state you think the test is fishy. It's an advertisement for Lexus, of course it will be set up to present a product in the best light possible. Just like BMW claims to be the Ultimate Driving Machine in their ads when there are other fine options to be considered for that title.
03-24-13, 03:10 PM
#38
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And with that added luxury and comfort that will relinquish the Ultimate Driving Machine title in its segment, but that's ok. The previous E60 was to say the least, a disappointment in the refinement category but man did it out handle everything thrown at it. Fast forward to 2011 and the extra 400lbs has been a blessing and a curse. The new 5-Series is still more well rounded than the E60 which is progressive to the model line. The 5-Series isn't for everyone, but neither is the GS to others. Both are great cars, as is the competition. Most buyers will get what best suits them, which in this segment they're all winners.
Originally Posted by 4tehnguyen
the 5 is more like a small 7 now instead of a big 3
03-24-13, 04:13 PM
#41
Fortunately for the BMW though, sales will be great, as the majority of drivers don't care about the handling when there is a big, shiny BMW badge on the hood. The E class sells great even though most magazines and car reviewers comment about it's "lack of handling". It's all about that chrome star.
Typical middle child syndrome lol.
Typical middle child syndrome lol.
03-24-13, 04:16 PM
#42
Pole Position
One must not, however, solely judge a "Driving Machine" simply by low 0-60, times, short panic-braking distances, or high figures on the skidpad and slalom. A lot more than simple raw performance is required to make a true drivers' car. One thing, over the years, that has typically made a BMW a BMW is the superb chassis-engineering which combined a virtually unmatched ride/handling combination with tactile-sensitive steering (even with power-assist) that uncanilly told the driver's fingers exactly what the two front wheels were doing. In that, BMW, IMO, still ranks very high today, if no longer at the absolute top.
I have driven most variations of the 4th Gen GS, and have driven the IS-F a few times. Lexus, starting with the IS-F, has come a long way in the handling department. And I think the IS-F is completely tossable and handles most situations superbly. And then along came the 4GS, and the handling and steering blew me away. I was and still am quite impressed.
But, the IS-F rides harsh. Hec, the earlier models rode like washboards. And then they refreshed the spring rates, tweaked the control arms and such, and now it rides a lot better.....but then it gave up some of the suspension's confidence.
And the 4GS rides a little 'nervous'. It's almost a little manic, steering almost overly precise....especially for such a large car. I kind of like it. But, many non-driving enthusiasts aren't going to buy the 4GS. One test drive and they'll think they're piloting a 'super sport' version of a luxury car. It will turn them off.
BMWs still have found a way to master the art of a compliant suspension matched with superp (almost telepathic) handling. Yet the steering isn't overly nervous either. Grandma can drive a 3 series and not think much of it. This "ultimate driving machine" case is made best in the new 3 series (even with their new power-assisted steering). The steering/handling/compliant combo is still at the top of the class. Raw numbers won't bear this out, but test-driving all the cars in the 3-series domain, and then driving the new 3...and you can tell that the engineers at BMW work OT on the "feel" AND capability of the suspension.
Yes, I'm a Lexus fanboy, have owned 3, and have modded two.....but I can still sense something "special" going on underneath the car when I ride in a BMW (bone stock). I can go around an unknown turn flat-out and be immediately confident that I will be able to carry the perfect line through the turn, and I am not worried in the least if there's a bump, dip or even an obstacle in the road.....because I can simply change directions and keep control of the car. This is just completely thrilling and inspiring. The new 5 is so big and heavy that it filters out a lot of the specialness.....and I haven't had the pleasure of piloting the new M5.
I love driving, the art of it....not just speeding and slaloming, but the complete feel of the car while I'm doing crazy crap behind the wheel (and I have a leadfoot for sure). The last M3 (and the last M5), it was pure magic. It was a damn near perfect combo of steering, handling, braking and compliance. Telepathic without being manic.....and words can barely describe the job that the BMW engineers accomplished. I have driven an M3 like a crazed maniac on a track, and the car made me look like a Grand Prix racer....so tossable, so direct, yet so comfortable.
Lexus is not there yet. But they're getting closer. And I have high hopes for the new IS.
The 4GS handles great, and I like the new direction......almost feels smaller than it really is because it moves so well. But, it doesn't have that complete magic yet. And if you're going to err on the side of handling and compliance for your showcase sedan, for sales sakes it's best to be a little conservative....to keep the ol' dedicated retiree crowd coming back for more Lexuses. The 4GS erred on the side of engaging and exhilirating.....which is great for us enthusiasts, but in the end, I don't think it's going to sell all that well.
The LS does it's job perfectly, a luxo-boat. And I see a TON of them in my area, filled with drivers with gray hair. The LS handles it's mission nicely.
03-24-13, 06:39 PM
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Not quite sure why you'd think an enthusiast community might hold the detailed data from a Lexus advertisement... Did you try to contact AMCI yourself for more details on the test and their independence?
It seems you are accusing Lexus of cooking the books by hiring an independent lab to do this test for their ad. Sure it looks like from your link that an AMCI marketing group was part of a Lexus event. If you'll google you'll find they do a lot of tests for other OEMs too.
Chevy vs Dodge
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/04...r-testing.html
also used in their ad... I suspect Chevy paid for thest
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/...uture/hd2hd.do
Dodge wins a test too
http://blog.chryslergroupllc.com/blo...id=478&p=entry
Genesis testing
http://www.torquenews.com/1084/2013-...es-competition
Hey BMW gets good remarks from AMCI testing
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/NEW+RE......-a017927425
Found this googling, but a bit older
This frankly is the first time I've ever heard of them. I'd guess AMCI's primary business are when a manufacturer designs something to beat a competitor and they want an independent company to prove it. If they do, it makes good ad copy like this. If they don't, I suspect it gets buried, or maybe test conditions changed and re-tested.
Are you right to be suspicious of an advertisement or any advertising claims? Yes.
Is AMCI hired by other OEMs to do similar tests? Yes.
Is there corroborating evidence that the test was mostly valid from other sources? Yes.
Should you expect to find the detailed test data and car options in the advertisement posted on CL? No.
Again, not quite sure what you were expecting to find.... sorry you don't find things constructive on Club Lexus but it seems you came here primarily wanting to state you think the test is fishy. It's an advertisement for Lexus, of course it will be set up to present a product in the best light possible. Just like BMW claims to be the Ultimate Driving Machine in their ads when there are other fine options to be considered for that title.
It seems you are accusing Lexus of cooking the books by hiring an independent lab to do this test for their ad
. Sure it looks like from your link that an AMCI marketing group was part of a Lexus event. If you'll google you'll find they do a lot of tests for other OEMs too. Chevy vs Dodge
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/04...r-testing.html
also used in their ad... I suspect Chevy paid for thest
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/...uture/hd2hd.do
Dodge wins a test too
http://blog.chryslergroupllc.com/blo...id=478&p=entry
Genesis testing
http://www.torquenews.com/1084/2013-...es-competition
Hey BMW gets good remarks from AMCI testing
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/NEW+RE......-a017927425
Found this googling, but a bit older
Testing
AMCI's unique testing programs help the world's automakers better understand their customer, their competition and the marketplace. Our methods are so scientific and our results so reliable, they are literally the industry standard - and have made AMCI the official testing company for J.D. Power. In over 20 years, not one claim bearing our name has ever been retracted due to legal challenge.
Our testing services begin with the objective Comparative Vehicle Assessment (CVA), during which a manufacture's car or truck is objectively analyzed alongside its competition. Superiorities uncovered during the CVA can then be turned into indisputable marketing advantages through Advertising Claim Certification, substantiated by AMCI's proprietary methodology.
Advertising Claim Certification
When you stake your brand's reputation on a competitive claim, it has to be true, and it has to be absolutely defensible. AMCI testing precision and methodology are backed by a track record of success stretching back over 20 years. In that time, we have certified hundreds of comparative claims for dozens of manufacturers - and not one has ever been retracted due to litigation. Should one of our claims be challenged, we offer turn-key counsel if legal action is ever taken regarding an AMCI-certified claim.
AMCI's unique testing programs help the world's automakers better understand their customer, their competition and the marketplace. Our methods are so scientific and our results so reliable, they are literally the industry standard - and have made AMCI the official testing company for J.D. Power. In over 20 years, not one claim bearing our name has ever been retracted due to legal challenge.
Our testing services begin with the objective Comparative Vehicle Assessment (CVA), during which a manufacture's car or truck is objectively analyzed alongside its competition. Superiorities uncovered during the CVA can then be turned into indisputable marketing advantages through Advertising Claim Certification, substantiated by AMCI's proprietary methodology.
Advertising Claim Certification
When you stake your brand's reputation on a competitive claim, it has to be true, and it has to be absolutely defensible. AMCI testing precision and methodology are backed by a track record of success stretching back over 20 years. In that time, we have certified hundreds of comparative claims for dozens of manufacturers - and not one has ever been retracted due to litigation. Should one of our claims be challenged, we offer turn-key counsel if legal action is ever taken regarding an AMCI-certified claim.
Are you right to be suspicious of an advertisement or any advertising claims? Yes.
Is AMCI hired by other OEMs to do similar tests? Yes.
Is there corroborating evidence that the test was mostly valid from other sources? Yes.
Should you expect to find the detailed test data and car options in the advertisement posted on CL? No.
Again, not quite sure what you were expecting to find.... sorry you don't find things constructive on Club Lexus but it seems you came here primarily wanting to state you think the test is fishy. It's an advertisement for Lexus, of course it will be set up to present a product in the best light possible. Just like BMW claims to be the Ultimate Driving Machine in their ads when there are other fine options to be considered for that title.
As far as BMW is concerned, their AMCI xDrive comparison from 1996 was laughable. How could they have done an AWD test and not include Audi Quattro? I also never knew what the Ultimate Driving Machine meant, but since BMW never seemed to quantify it, I always thought it was rather meaningless. It's kind of like Coca Cola's "Life Begins Here", Really? Life begins with Coca Cola! Well that's just wrong, but it's just another meaningless slogan.
