cino

iTrader: (1)

Really? There are only a few SUV in the same league as LX570, and X5M/X6M is no where found in the list. A SUV that can't do off-road is not a real SUV. BMW name their so called SUVs, SAV though.

You probably don't know off-road enthusiasts use SUVs for going through jungles and mountains.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Thread title should apply to the 3 and 5 Series as the ATS and GS have seemingly dethroned each one respectively as the better drivers car.

Lexus still has plenty of catching up to do which we've discussed in almost countless threads it seems in just the past month.

M5 is still a force to be reckoned with (I myself would prefer the XFR), but the fact that it uses a soundtrack to pump an engine/exhaust note through the speakers is atrocious. Shame on you BMW.

dunderhi

First post here. As a former 550xi owner, I was curious when I read the Lexus GS F ad in Road & Track and how it beat the 535i in a series of performance tests. So I visited Lexus' website, but didn't see a full set of test data, just a few videos. Naturally I went to Google to search and still all I found was a couple of videos. This thread also showed up in the search and yet again, only a couple of videos - no comprehensive test results showing all of the results. So I went to the AMCI Testing website where they talked about a long history of testing for the manufacturers, but again no test data. I kept searching until I found an article which talked about one of Lexus' marketing firms: www.amcimarketing.com. I followed the link which redirected me to AMCI (Automotive Marketing Consultants Inc.) Global, which is the same AMCI that conducted the testing. The Lexus GS F can win in a fair fight (i.e. Motortrend's comparo), but I'm not so sure that AMCI gave us impartial results. Is Lexus doing something fishy by using their marketing firm to do comparos? Why not brag they won an unquestionably impartial MT comparo instead?

cino

iTrader: (1)

Did you really do research on that?

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz1rb65mX3O

natnut

Actually Motortrend did test both the 550i and GS350 F-Sport

Guess what.....

BMW 550i
Braking 60-0mph 116ft
Lateral acceleration (cornering) 0.86g
Figure 8 slalom 26.1 sec@ 0.70g

Lexus GS350 F-Sport
Braking 60-0mph 110ft
Lateral acceleration (cornering) 0.94g
Figure 8 slalom 25.4 sec@0.71g

If anything, the 550i, with its heavy V8 engine weighing down its nose, did even worse than the 535i in terms of handling.

Links :
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...i/viewall.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...s/viewall.html

dunderhi

That is the sequence of events that led me to this thread. That is also the MT comparo that I was referencing where the GS F took first place. So I'm not sure what you are attempting to infer?

natnut

You might not like the answer.

Edmunds tested the 2013 M5 and the 2013 GS350 F-Sport on its slalom :

2013 M5 slalom speed : 68.9mph
2013 GS350 F-Sport slalom speed : 69.7mph

Links :
http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m5/2013/road-test.html
http://www.edmunds.com/lexus/gs-350/2013/road-test.html


Keep in mind the M5 has > 500hp compared to the GS350's 306hp and it is supposedly a full fledged super sedan,BMW's crown jewel while the GS350 F-Sport is just a sport suspension equipped Lexus family sedan.

Incidentally, a car company is defined by its bread and butter cars. In the past, BMW built is reputation for handling not based on its rare M3s or M5s but on how well its base 3 and 5 series drove --- cars that were relatively affordable and accessible by Joe Public. It is only fair that modern-day BMW should be judged on how well its current base 3( F30) and 5 ( F10)series drives.

And from the looks of latest reviews and handling numbers , even the new BMW M5 is no longer as dynamic or exciting to drive.

dunderhi

The M5 is definitely a heavy beast, but I think it is more of Nurburgring car vice a low speed slalom type of car. Of course the slalom is more useful in terms of accident avoidance in everyday driving and should be an important measure.

You mention the the GS F is a sport suspension equipped family sedan which is an interesting point. The MSport is an appearance package that did not come with any type sport suspension as part of that package in 2012. It would have been nice to see a fully documented test from AMCI which showed how the cars were equipped. From what I have seen, the 2012 MSport package without the Dynamic Handling Package actually hurts performance. In 2013, BMW added Sport suspension to the MSport package. I wonder why they didn't compare a 2013 535 MSport.

Mr. Burns

The M cars are all niche. The standard BMWs that everyone buys are really no more driving machines than anything else in their segments. The tag line has become a marketing slogan rather than a philosophy.

natnut

According to the videos, the BMW 535i M-Sport was equipped with the optional rear steering. That leads me to believe the particular 535i they tested came with the full M-Sport suspension package and not just an appearance package.

dunderhi

There was no such thing as a full MSport suspension package in 2012. There was a seperate Dynamic Handling Package unrelated to the MSport appearance package just like the integral active steering (which most testers don't like), but details like this is why I started my search to learn more about the testing. If the GS F beat the 535i fair and square, then good on Lexus, but so far all I'm finding is a lack in details and the potential for something fishy. Not hard at all to compare two similiarly euipped 2013 models, but for some reason AMCI (Lexus) chose otherwise. The 2013 535i went on sale in March of 2012, so I don't see any legitimate reason not to use one in testing that ocurred probably a good six months later.

spwolf

i think people posted links to mags doing testing few posts above, so whats the problem? Dont trust Edmunds, dont trust Motortrend, dont trust this ACMI whatever it is? M5 vs GS350 is not fair compare for M5? Thats funny.

Maybe you should drive both cars and let us know what you think? That seems like the best choice instead of spending efforts here on not trusting the media (I dont trust them either but here we have test data from several sources).

dunderhi

I hope you have me confused with someone else. This thread was started with the AMCI test results videos. I was the first person in this thread to post that the GS F won in the unbiased MT comparo. I didn't realize I needed to post links to get credit for my statments. Why is that not good enough for you?

I have never made any comment about MT or Edmunds test results other than to call MT's results impartial. I even stated the importance of the slalom in real world conditions which as it was pointed out the GS F performed better than the M5. So, I'm not sure what your issues are with me, I'm just trying to find out the truth behind Lexus' current advertising campaign and so far a AMCI is concerned, it looks to be a marketing effort paid for by Lexus. I haven't stated that any BMW 5 Series is better than any Lexus GS, so again I'm not sure why you are blaming me for anything. This is kind of sad.

Here's a link, so I can get some credit: Lexus flexes brand at AMCI event

Anyway, concerning test drives, I'm not in the 300hp sedan market, so it would be pointless for me to waste two sales guys time test driving the cars, just so I can share a conclusion which would be revered by one camp and despised by the other

spwolf

I am trying to figure out whats the problem here. Obviously GS marketing is GS marketing and paid by Lexus who makes and sells GS. Lexus has to pay for any marketing materials be it independent testing lab or Motortrend.

Question here is if the message being sent is real or fake, right? So we check on Edmunds and Motortrend which we can correlate this with and they have same results.

So what exactly is the issue? AMCI claims are pretty much the same as what Edmunds and Motortrend have shown to us already, so I dont understand your point?

I am not sure why are you confused about anything I wrote. Apparently you think it is ok for GS350 to beat M5 in handling since M5 is built for Nurburgring and I find that funny.

Do you think that there is some 535i package that actually handles better than M5? And thus AMCI made some kind of package selection that hurts 535i handling? I mean it is kind of silly to question AMCI because every other magazine tells us same exact thing, so lets question Motortrend and Edmunds and every other mag that stated the same?

And reason I am saying drive it yourself is because pretty much everyone around here, and plenty are BMW owners, have said exactly the same thing when it comes to handling.

spwolf

so if someone posts performance numbers between 535i and GS350 done by independent lab, they are fanboys posting fanboy threads?

These are sport sedans and sold as such. Once again, pretty funny that apparently it doesnt matter anymore.