February 2013 SalesThread
03-04-13, 04:00 PM
#46
Lexus Test Driver
The ES is not a Lexus, its a Toyota imo and not even the best one, since the Avalon is nicer.
It eats into IS and GS sales bec its cheaper than the GS and bigger than the IS plus it LEASES much better than BOTH.
Just like MB and BMW - Lexus also has badge ***** customers. The want a Lexus for the name and usually get an ES bec its cheaper and the DEALERS recommend them like its the best thing ever!
Think about it - If the GS platform was a success, Lexus would have the ability to make a GS-F, GS coupe, GS 4dr Coupe etc. But bec it sells in such low volume, Lexus cant do that.
By keeping the ES, ultimately Lexus is WASTING an excellent platform in the GS and losing potential profit.
It eats into IS and GS sales bec its cheaper than the GS and bigger than the IS plus it LEASES much better than BOTH.
Just like MB and BMW - Lexus also has badge ***** customers. The want a Lexus for the name and usually get an ES bec its cheaper and the DEALERS recommend them like its the best thing ever!
Think about it - If the GS platform was a success, Lexus would have the ability to make a GS-F, GS coupe, GS 4dr Coupe etc. But bec it sells in such low volume, Lexus cant do that.
By keeping the ES, ultimately Lexus is WASTING an excellent platform in the GS and losing potential profit.
03-04-13, 04:06 PM
#47
The ES is not a Lexus, its a Toyota imo and not even the best one, since the Avalon is nicer.
It eats into IS and GS sales bec its cheaper than the GS and bigger than the IS plus it LEASES much better than BOTH.
Just like MB and BMW - Lexus also has badge ***** customers. The want a Lexus for the name and usually get an ES bec its cheaper and the DEALERS recommend them like its the best thing ever!
Think about it - If the GS platform was a success, Lexus would have the ability to make a GS-F, GS coupe, GS 4dr Coupe etc. But bec it sells in such low volume, Lexus cant do that.
By keeping the ES, ultimately Lexus is WASTING an excellent platform in the GS and losing potential profit.
It eats into IS and GS sales bec its cheaper than the GS and bigger than the IS plus it LEASES much better than BOTH.
Just like MB and BMW - Lexus also has badge ***** customers. The want a Lexus for the name and usually get an ES bec its cheaper and the DEALERS recommend them like its the best thing ever!
Think about it - If the GS platform was a success, Lexus would have the ability to make a GS-F, GS coupe, GS 4dr Coupe etc. But bec it sells in such low volume, Lexus cant do that.
By keeping the ES, ultimately Lexus is WASTING an excellent platform in the GS and losing potential profit.
Toyota will not get rid of the ES.That would be nuts for so many reasons.
I don't think the ES has hurt IS sales over the years.The IS isn't a family sedan.It's small and the back seat room was awful.
Selling 5K ES models in a months is not losing potential profit.The RX and ES have been the top sellers and will continue to be for quite awhile.
The GS is smaller,gets less MPGs and is sporty and $12K more than an ES.Many won't spend that extra $12K and have less room and MPGs.
03-04-13, 05:23 PM
#48
I think it depends on how you look at the numbers. The Fusion and Altima's numbers are inflated by fleet sales, while the Accord an Camry rely less on it. Camry and Accord are pretty much neck to neck in the retail world, but I think Honda could do slightly better if they weren't so stingy on keeping the fleet rate extraordinarily low.
have thoughts on reasons why, but not for this thread.
03-04-13, 06:01 PM
#50
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If you knew anything about the M, it flopped from day one, not so the GS.
Where were you people when the GS sold 2700 in December or 2300 last February. When the GS outsold the 5 series in August we got excuses for that too.
So it doesn't seem to matter what the GS does.
Its funny that when the GS sells/sold well, things are quiet or the argument was "oh well its not sporty". Now the GS is sportiest in class and the argument moves to sales.
Thats odd, all the bragging on the internet was to be the sportiest. Well the GS is. Maybe you "enthusiasts" need to read up, or maybe go for a drive.
Where were you people when the GS sold 2700 in December or 2300 last February. When the GS outsold the 5 series in August we got excuses for that too.
So it doesn't seem to matter what the GS does. Its funny that when the GS sells/sold well, things are quiet or the argument was "oh well its not sporty". Now the GS is sportiest in class and the argument moves to sales.
Thats odd, all the bragging on the internet was to be the sportiest. Well the GS is. Maybe you "enthusiasts" need to read up, or maybe go for a drive.
03-04-13, 06:05 PM
#51
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I agree with the above, thats why I started a thread calling for the ES to be killed off.
My prediction is if there was no ES, the GS would be selling 4,000 per month easy.
Also the new ES is hideous and cheap looking in person - the new Avalon looks much nicer inside/out. Killing the ES will continue to separate Lexus from the stigma that its just a souped up Camry.
I'm actually surprised how bad the GS is selling since I see them all over in NYC.
Maybe other parts of the country its not doing well.
My prediction is if there was no ES, the GS would be selling 4,000 per month easy.
Also the new ES is hideous and cheap looking in person - the new Avalon looks much nicer inside/out. Killing the ES will continue to separate Lexus from the stigma that its just a souped up Camry.
I'm actually surprised how bad the GS is selling since I see them all over in NYC.
Maybe other parts of the country its not doing well.
Gasp, its amazing people still don't get the concept of different sales targets. The ES/RX are Lexus volume cars like the 3/5 is for BMW or the A4/Q5 is for Audi. The GS is not made nor intended to sell in those volumes. Not every car made is built to be the #1 seller in class.
The ES is hideous and cheap looking to you. The ES is now Avalon based, not Camry based, might want to read up.
You guys are looking at two months, two traditionally slow months when Lexus has minimal incentives to bash the GS. Really accurate there.
Also maybe the GS should get a 4 cylinder like the 5 series to get sales. The GS has basically one engine option (hybrid is very niche) and its obvious not everyone wants or cares for 300hp in the midsize class. The E-class sold in droves with 255hp or 200hp until recently.
03-04-13, 06:07 PM
#52
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I think they are all happy with where they are and it is pretty obvious AGAIN that the Camry for whatever reasons will remain #1. This should have hit home when the Camry which the internetz bashed to death was #1 in sales with a Tsunami and in its last year of production before the new model.
03-04-13, 06:10 PM
#53
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I've long predicted that once the new-gen ES arrived the GS sales would drop significantly. The ES competes directly with the GS in many ways and unfortunately the advantage will always skew towards the ES because of its better affordability and practicality, exactly what most buyers want in general.
In the ES forum, there isn't much GS talk either. THey are not cross shopped, they are squarely aimed at different markets.
They are priced very differently the ES starts at 38k-48k and the GS 47k-75k with options. Clearly the GS won't sell as well as an ES.
The GS sold 2700 units in December, where was the champagne? Where were the kudos?
FYI, the GS pretty much hit its 24k sales goal, falling short around 800 or so units. Not bad for a vehicle people like to beat up.
We have a GS, never looked at the ES. A close bud got one for the wife, never looked at the ES. I don't know anyone personally who looked at both.
More than anything I think some of you misjudge how much weight the ES name carries and that people trust that car and it has a big solid following. The ES has been a volume seller for years selling 40-70k units every year. The best the GS did was 32k and is usually in the 10-25k range. The ES simply has a larger audience.
03-04-13, 06:29 PM
#54
Lexus Test Driver
The GS forum is full of buyers and there might be one maybe two threads comparing the ES. THe majority of the threads compare the 5 series, then A6 it seems.
In the ES forum, there isn't much GS talk either. THey are not cross shopped, they are squarely aimed at different markets.
They are priced very differently the ES starts at 38k-48k and the GS 47k-75k with options. Clearly the GS won't sell as well as an ES.
The GS sold 2700 units in December, where was the champagne? Where were the kudos?
FYI, the GS pretty much hit its 24k sales goal, falling short around 800 or so units. Not bad for a vehicle people like to beat up.
We have a GS, never looked at the ES. A close bud got one for the wife, never looked at the ES. I don't know anyone personally who looked at both.
More than anything I think some of you misjudge how much weight the ES name carries and that people trust that car and it has a big solid following. The ES has been a volume seller for years selling 40-70k units every year. The best the GS did was 32k and is usually in the 10-25k range. The ES simply has a larger audience.
In the ES forum, there isn't much GS talk either. THey are not cross shopped, they are squarely aimed at different markets.
They are priced very differently the ES starts at 38k-48k and the GS 47k-75k with options. Clearly the GS won't sell as well as an ES.
The GS sold 2700 units in December, where was the champagne? Where were the kudos?
FYI, the GS pretty much hit its 24k sales goal, falling short around 800 or so units. Not bad for a vehicle people like to beat up.
We have a GS, never looked at the ES. A close bud got one for the wife, never looked at the ES. I don't know anyone personally who looked at both.
More than anything I think some of you misjudge how much weight the ES name carries and that people trust that car and it has a big solid following. The ES has been a volume seller for years selling 40-70k units every year. The best the GS did was 32k and is usually in the 10-25k range. The ES simply has a larger audience.
The reason why GS sales have suffered historically is bec of the ES.
As u stated, they are both within inches of each other yet one is $10k cheaper, ur regular joe will get the ES 4 of 5 times bec it still says Lexus on the back!
Why can the E class and 5-series sell 4-5,000 units per month and the GS cant???
What other sane explanation is there?
BTW the current GS is 100000x better car than the ES. You should want Lexus to push the better product, not take a Camry derived platform and sprinkle a few luxo touches.
03-04-13, 06:39 PM
#56
Lexus Test Driver
Also the MAIN POINT I want to make:
If the GS platform was more successful, we would get more models derived from it such as a GS-F, GS Coupe, GS 4dr coupe, etc.
Right now the economies of scale aren't there to make that work since the GS itself is a low volume model.
If the GS platform was more successful, we would get more models derived from it such as a GS-F, GS Coupe, GS 4dr coupe, etc.
Right now the economies of scale aren't there to make that work since the GS itself is a low volume model.
03-04-13, 06:45 PM
#57
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I know you think your Mr. Lexus but if ur going to tell me people don't cross-shop the ES and GS thats just CRAZY.
The reason why GS sales have suffered historically is bec of the ES.
As u stated, they are both within inches of each other yet one is $10k cheaper, ur regular joe will get the ES 4 of 5 times bec it still says Lexus on the back!
Why can the E class and 5-series sell 4-5,000 units per month and the GS cant???
What other sane explanation is there?
BTW the current GS is 100000x better car than the ES. You should want Lexus to push the better product, not take a Camry derived platform and sprinkle a few luxo touches.
The reason why GS sales have suffered historically is bec of the ES.
As u stated, they are both within inches of each other yet one is $10k cheaper, ur regular joe will get the ES 4 of 5 times bec it still says Lexus on the back!
Why can the E class and 5-series sell 4-5,000 units per month and the GS cant???
What other sane explanation is there?
BTW the current GS is 100000x better car than the ES. You should want Lexus to push the better product, not take a Camry derived platform and sprinkle a few luxo touches.
The GS has historically met sales goals, targets lower than the ES. Why? Its not meant to be a volume car and it is more expensive than the ES.
I have said it and its pretty obvious certain vehicles in certain segments are the default choice and usually #1 or #2 in sales. The 5 series and E class have earned that right. Nothing will sell like them. They are TAXI CABS in Europe. They are volume cars. Why are we expecting a GS to sell like it.
The GS has 1 engine, a 306hp one and then a 65-80k hybrid that sells maybe 100 a month. Lets compare
5 series-530, 535, 550, 5GT, M5
E class-E350, E550, Wagons, Coupes, hybrids, diesels
Its not even like the GS offers all the versions like they do.
Lexus makes a better product, that is why we chose a GS. You should ask the same for BMW since the Lexus is sportier
The ES has proven that people like a FWD Lexus. Guess what, BMW is moving to FWD and so is Mercedes. 
Oh the horror
03-04-13, 06:48 PM
#58
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I hope you learn about different targets for different products. Not everything is meant to sell so well. Clearly the business model is happy at the 24k a year sales goal and BMW/Benz rely on 300-400k E class/5 series a year worldwide or whatever number they sell.
Whats funny is the M37/56 has flopped since day one and there isn't any discussion on that. The RL/RLX hasn't met sales goals for 15 years. The Genesis sedan missed targets as well.
The GS is the whipping boy, for being a Lexus
03-04-13, 06:51 PM
#59
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What about the 5 series? They moved from its own platform to one based off the heavier 7 series. They slapped in a 4 cylinder here. It drives less sporty than a GS. No one cares, it sells like hotcakes. You do realize the 5 series accounts for around 40% of BMW profits. Its their bread and butter.
03-04-13, 06:54 PM
#60
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And btw I do agree around 1100 units a month is a sharp drop off. Is it due to lack of inventory due to high December sales? Lexus also has a lack of incentives for the GS those months. Things hopefully pick up in March.
I do agree the GS has many sales challenges, from competition, to marketing, to even looks and pricing and lack of engine options. So I am not here to say the car is flawless or Lexus could not do better. They can and they should.
However the GS simply is not meant to sell in the numbers some of you are judging it against which is not fair to the GS. Its like calling the Porsche Panamera a failure b/c it doesn't sell like an S-class.
I do agree the GS has many sales challenges, from competition, to marketing, to even looks and pricing and lack of engine options. So I am not here to say the car is flawless or Lexus could not do better. They can and they should.
However the GS simply is not meant to sell in the numbers some of you are judging it against which is not fair to the GS. Its like calling the Porsche Panamera a failure b/c it doesn't sell like an S-class.