if you read what i posted again, you will notice that i didn't say gsf will lack in overall performance at all. i actually said the 4gs is one heck of a car to drive and i won't be surprised if they make the gsf even more joyful

my point has always been, how is lexus going to sell the car? against 550i and e550? or against m5 and e63? you can throw all the quarter and slalom times at the buyers but most of them would just yawn over them because most of them just don't care. all i am saying is it's going to be very hard to market the vehicle to a already very tiny crowd. i said similar things on lfa before. i want the car to sell well, why wouldn't i? but it's going to be one hell of a fight for lexus to convince m5 and e63 buyers to look this way, unlike what lexus did with the isf (which is comparable is every aspect).

and don't even mention about gas guzzler tax. i don't mean to offend anyone, but series buyers who is ready to throw 100k on a car, they would really care less about the 3% gas guzzler. just like when you go ask any lfa owners if they feel hurt about the gas guzzler they paid

 

At least in the rendering, it's amazing how much better the front of the GS looks when they fill out the front corner edges. That IMO is the new GS's biggest design flaw- it's missing body right where body needs to be.

 

I think the most important factor here is the weight. The new F10 weighs 400lbs more than the old E60. Lexus's new 13 GS weighs virtually the same as 2011. 461hp should be sufficient.

In fact Audi proved less is more in a recent Car and Driver comparo between the 13 Audi S6, 12 MBZ E 63 AMG, and the 13 BMW M5. The Audi bested both of them despite giving up 98hp and 140hp respectively

 

Henry does have a point that from a marketing and competition level, anything less than 500 hp could have a negative affect on sales of a car in this segment.
I've been car shopping recently. Salesmen don't talk much about handling. When they do its secondary to power. They talk about 0-60 numbers.

People who buy cars like this want bragging rights. Like little boys comparing toys. I think its silly but we live in a superficial society and people are concerned with image. Just being able to say your car makes 500 hp is a big deal to boys.

I'd never say that power was a negative but I'm not one of the boys who chase it. I'm definitely not one of the boys who needs to express my manhood through toys. For me, 460 hp would be marvelous as I care much about the total driving experience. Heck, I'm happy with the power I have now.

But if Lexus wants to maximise sales, the magic number is 500.

They may not care about horsepower wars with competitors. They could have easily made the LFA with 600+ hp but they chose to focus on the total driving experience. That tells me there won't be a 500 hp GSF.

 

We can also speculate on the following about the GS F:
- will there be an additional mode above Sport+?
- how will the interior be differentiated from the "regular" GS F-Sport?
- what kind of rubber? on 20" rims?
- will LDH/DRS be standard?
- electronic gauge cluster from LFA?
- 8 speed transmission? Dual clutch?
- stacked quad pipes?
- colors?

Again, I can't wait. This will be my milestone birthday gift to myself.

 

Sorry to burst the bubble, but there is no way in hell that the GS-F is going to be competitive 0-60,0-100,1/4 mile, or in any drag race with the new M5. The new M5 recently put down 527whp... And if the GS-F has similar drivetrain losses to the IS-F, its only going to put down power in the 385-395whp range. Also, you should remember that the IS-F is based off the same F principle and weighs a few hundred pounds more than its ISx50 brothers. Taking that the GS-F is going to employ the same strategy for its power plant, I would expect the car to be 4000lbs+. On paper, the GS-F is going to look like a terrible buy IMO



Im going to have to disagree with you here. If you look at the trends of how the M5 sold and talk to owners about why they bought, you'll find that reviews have a significant effect on the sales of super sedans. Being the most talked about car in your class is whats going to get buyers through the door. Lexus has been great in marketing its vehicles, but has been lax when it comes to initial competitiveness in the sports car market.

Most M3 owners will tell you that the ISF is slower than an M3 because they say/read an article in a magazine or something similar on youtube. Its been years from the initial launch, the IS-F has grown up to be a proven faster car than its M3 rival, but nobody talks about it. If Lexus is looking for this car to really sell, they need to go BIG. Shock the market with a platform that is just stunning and awe inspiring. If the GS-F were to be faster than the new M5, it would be a huge splash in the water and every car magazine would be fighting over the chance to compare the two.

 

The IS-F while ground-breaking for Lexus, was based on old suspension and chassis principles and never won any handling comparos vs the M3.

The new GS tellingly didn't gain any weight over the previous generations despite its increased dimensions and has convincingly beaten the 5 series in head-to-head handling comparisons AND it is the first mainstream Lexus platform built from ground-up that incorporates Lexus' new ride/steering/handling DNA.

Firstly, I don't believe for a second that the GS-F will have only 50 more hp than the IS-F. There will be a significant hp/torque increase over the ISF. Second, Lexus new philosophy is about building in lightness rather than just pumping power. I suspect the GS-F will incorporate significant chassis lightening tech from the LFA eg carbon fiber, aluminium and ultra high strength steel sort of like the ISF-CCR. As long as the weight-to-hp/torque ratio is comparable to the M5, the GSF will be a viable competitor.

 

^ What he said. What cars is the GS-F going to compete with? Surely not the M5 or E63 since both have more horsepower and have twin turbos so with minimal mods is going to have even more horsepower. The GS-F will get smoked by these two cars and the price is obviously higher with these cars so maybe they aren't the cars the GS-F is going to compete with. Maybe Lexus is trying to compare it to a hooked up 550 which can be in the $80k range (which is a little ridiculous in price to me anyway).

 

but everyone is laughing histerically at S6, didnt you read the thread?

Oh wait, S6 beats competition in tests because RS6 exists... if RS6 didnt exist, then everyone would laugh histerically at S6.

 

While more is better I would be fine with mid to high 400's if the weight is kept in check. I am the exact demographic for htis car, we love our USB IS-F but it is a bit tight for a family of four, the GS would be the perfect trade-in for us. We looked at the M3 and C63 when shopping the IS-F, each has thier plus and minus but in the end we chose the reliability of the lexus over the Germans while getting 9/10ths of the performance. A GS-F at around $75-80k would be the next logical step for us.

 

^^AMEN! I'm in the exact same position and agree with you.

 

everyone has valid points,,, again,,, when i am able to reach out and touch the GS-F... then and only then will i believe it's here.

 

Disclaimer: These are strictly my opinions

I am not making excuses for the GS F (if it does turn out to be low on power) but really, there is going to come a point where the horsepower war is not sustainable. I think Toyota has acknowledged this and continues to make refinements and changes to powertrains to be competitive, but is no longer aiming to produce the highest horsepower engines.

When everyone has a 550hp TT V8 and goes 0-60 in 4 seconds, does 580hp and 0-60 in 3.9 seconds really feel that different? Or 600hp and 0-60 in 3.8 seconds? Not really, and the number of people who would care about such things is insignificant.

I mentioned this a while ago, but I think it will be the "total package" that comes to define iconic cars in the future: Cars with sharp driving dynamics, great handling, intuitive driver feedback and yes - lots of power. Right now, almost every major brand has a ~300HP V6 , a V8 with ~400 horsepower, etc., but what continues to define certain cars as good or bad is the overall package. Infiniti M56 came out with more horsepower than 550i or E550...did anyone care? A6 3.0T has more horsepower than 528i, 535i, and E350...but still sells at a fractional volume of the 5 or E. C63 will lay waste to an IS F or M3 in a straight line...but BMW and Lexus still seem to be moving plenty of both. CTS-V has made the M5 and E63 look like little girls since 2009 with 552hp, but the Benz and Bimmer are still considered class kings. I digress.

My point here is two-fold: 1) Horsepower is really not a defining factor for a lot of people and 2) It seems like every manufacturer does things a little differently to cater to their audience. Lexus will be the only one in the segment with a N/A V8. It will also have a unique look and attitude. Judging by Lexus’ recent achievements, the GS F might also feel significantly more athletic and driver-oriented than E63, M5, S6, etc. Right now, we just don’t know what they will deliver, but it is too soon to count them out as irrelevant.

Also worth noting: I live in an area where soccer moms and old ladies drive X5 M, ML 63, M5, E63, CLS63, S65, Alpina B7, S8, etc. Do you think they have any idea how much horsepower is under the hood? No - these are wealthy people who view M/AMG/RS/S/F/V as a top trim level in the product line and are accustomed to having the best of the best. They walk into a dealership and ask for the “best” E class and leave with an E63, or they specifically want an M car because of the cache that goes along with it, or they want the S6 because it has the bigger wheels and carbon fiber trim. These are real scenarios that I have seen play out time and time again. There is room for Lexus to play and win in this market.

I would personally rather have a 460hp car with superior driving dynamics that goes 0-60 in 4.6 seconds vs. one that has 560hp, goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and drives like a rhino with a jet pack. Such people do exist. I think folks here are getting way too caught up in horsepower. Yes, I would like to see the GS F around 550hp just for the sake of being competitive, but I am actually more interested in seeing Lexus deliver a unique formula – something like an FRS-formula applied to the GS F.

In Lexus’ own words, F represents performance – not acceleration. Performance encompasses many areas, including acceleration, which is just one piece of the puzzle.

 

Needs to be over to be taken seriously ... and not just barely over ......

 

Since we're having a pow-wow session, I'd like a larger fuel capacity. 17 gal is a tad scant.