2014 gs f
09-11-12, 08:37 PM
#61
I think GS-F will sell a lot better for 85k than for 110k.
I bet if you got M5, you would carry few copies of magazine showing how great your car is... and then you read this and what happens? Mindblown! lol.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...audi-s6-page-4
I have yet to see anyone laughing about S6, and it is 40hp less than GS-F.
As to the people thinking it would be lightweight...maybe compared to M5, but with V8, bigger tires, bigger brakes, it would be at least 4000lbs car.
p.s. M division sells between 14k and 22k cars per year, including SUVs, coupes, sedans, worldwide. Apperantly half of them are in non-rich areas of your town.
I bet if you got M5, you would carry few copies of magazine showing how great your car is... and then you read this and what happens? Mindblown! lol.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...audi-s6-page-4
I have yet to see anyone laughing about S6, and it is 40hp less than GS-F.
As to the people thinking it would be lightweight...maybe compared to M5, but with V8, bigger tires, bigger brakes, it would be at least 4000lbs car.
p.s. M division sells between 14k and 22k cars per year, including SUVs, coupes, sedans, worldwide. Apperantly half of them are in non-rich areas of your town.
I'm sure the GS-F with those specs would be a truly fine car on its own but if Lexus wants the F line to grab headlines and attention they need better numbers. The F cars being equated in terms of public perception to the Audi S is not good enough, because it will then always be known as a "second tier" performance model.
However I am aware numbers are not everything. Numbers show the IS-F is as strong or stronger a contender than the Germans' equivalent models and yet they barely trickle out the lots. Providing continually strong models contending to the Germans' best will eventually give them the brand cache they need. The IS-F is a good start, but putting out a GS-F having a tremendous power deficit than the competition won't help their cause.
09-11-12, 08:45 PM
#62
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What's in a name? With cars, it means a LOT. As I've already alluded to, Lexus aims for the "F" brand to mean something, basically a halo car for that particular series. Therefore, BMW M = Merc AMG = Audi RS =? Lexus F. That win for the S6 is is impressive for Audi but if they had called it the RS6 there would be a lot of head-scratching and Audi fans would be in an uproar. The S cars are well-known to be the "sub" performance line of Audi with the "real" performance cars having the RS designation. That's why the S4 can get away with having only 27 more hp than the IS350 and sell in the quantities that it does.
I'm sure the GS-F with those specs would be a truly fine car on its own but if Lexus wants the F line to grab headlines and attention they need better numbers. The F cars being equated in terms of public perception to the Audi S is not good enough, because it will then always be known as a "second tier" performance model.
However I am aware numbers are not everything. Numbers show the IS-F is as strong or stronger a contender than the Germans' equivalent models and yet they barely trickle out the lots. Providing continually strong models contending to the Germans' best will eventually give them the brand cache they need. The IS-F is a good start, but putting out a GS-F having a tremendous power deficit than the competition won't help their cause.
I'm sure the GS-F with those specs would be a truly fine car on its own but if Lexus wants the F line to grab headlines and attention they need better numbers. The F cars being equated in terms of public perception to the Audi S is not good enough, because it will then always be known as a "second tier" performance model.
However I am aware numbers are not everything. Numbers show the IS-F is as strong or stronger a contender than the Germans' equivalent models and yet they barely trickle out the lots. Providing continually strong models contending to the Germans' best will eventually give them the brand cache they need. The IS-F is a good start, but putting out a GS-F having a tremendous power deficit than the competition won't help their cause.
We recently had data that showed the IS F was selling well. The LFA is a vehicle BMW simply cannot begin to match. Lets bring up some positives.
Audi did not have a significant S or RS lineup until recently. M and AMG just grew really this past decade. So why are people so critical of Lexus? Hell Caddy only has the CTS-V, the STS-V and XLR-V flopped.
Rome was not built in a day. Lexus now at least has F and F-sport and at least is adding another V-8 when we just got wind Infiniti is dropping V-8s.
09-11-12, 08:47 PM
#64
Pole Position
Rominl and 1Sicklex both have good points but I think they're not mutually exclusive :
The new GS-F MAY have slightly less absolute horsepower and torque compared to the M5/AMG/RS6 but due to its lighter, more agile chassis and its superior suspension tuning, its performance parameters will still be superior to the Germans
Specifically better 0-60,0-100,1/4 mile times, better lateral grip, faster slalom and track times.
So those paper warriors can have it both ways : better magazine numbers to lord it over their neighbors who overpaid for the German cars and actual real-life driving enjoyment that is superior to the M's/AMG's/RS's.
And probably not get slapped with a gas guzzler tax due to the superior fuel efficiency of the GS-F.
The new GS-F MAY have slightly less absolute horsepower and torque compared to the M5/AMG/RS6 but due to its lighter, more agile chassis and its superior suspension tuning, its performance parameters will still be superior to the Germans
Specifically better 0-60,0-100,1/4 mile times, better lateral grip, faster slalom and track times.
So those paper warriors can have it both ways : better magazine numbers to lord it over their neighbors who overpaid for the German cars and actual real-life driving enjoyment that is superior to the M's/AMG's/RS's.
And probably not get slapped with a gas guzzler tax due to the superior fuel efficiency of the GS-F.
09-11-12, 09:07 PM
#67
Lexus Test Driver
I LOVE this NEWS!!!
Can't wait for more!!
I disagree, but I might be the "target market". I have disposable income and while the M5 and E63 have the status with them. If this comes in at a much better price point then I would be more interested in the GS-F. Not that performance and numbers aren't important but in the scheme of things its more the feel in the car than what the numbers say. Also the fact that the Lexus will be on the road more
(reliability). Lease vs own debate I guess.
Can't wait for more!!It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.
(reliability). Lease vs own debate I guess.
09-11-12, 09:10 PM
#68
OT: Can you post or PM me the sales data? I'm quite interested to see how the IS-F is selling but the US monthly sales reports only show the entire IS line and not just the IS-F. Do you also have sales data for the M3 and C63 to compare? For some reason Lexus Canada breaks down the numbers but not the US. Lexus sold 3 IS-F's in August across Canada (averaging 4.5 cars a month for 2012). I usually just go by how many I see on the road and there are tons of the others but around Vancouver and Seattle, IS-F's are rarer than Jesus.
09-11-12, 09:53 PM
#70
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What's in a name? With cars, it means a LOT. As I've already alluded to, Lexus aims for the "F" brand to mean something, basically a halo car for that particular series. Therefore, BMW M = Merc AMG = Audi RS =? Lexus F. That win for the S6 is is impressive for Audi but if they had called it the RS6 there would be a lot of head-scratching and Audi fans would be in an uproar. The S cars are well-known to be the "sub" performance line of Audi with the "real" performance cars having the RS designation. That's why the S4 can get away with having only 27 more hp than the IS350 and sell in the quantities that it does.
I'm sure the GS-F with those specs would be a truly fine car on its own but if Lexus wants the F line to grab headlines and attention they need better numbers. The F cars being equated in terms of public perception to the Audi S is not good enough, because it will then always be known as a "second tier" performance model.
However I am aware numbers are not everything. Numbers show the IS-F is as strong or stronger a contender than the Germans' equivalent models and yet they barely trickle out the lots. Providing continually strong models contending to the Germans' best will eventually give them the brand cache they need. The IS-F is a good start, but putting out a GS-F having a tremendous power deficit than the competition won't help their cause.
I'm sure the GS-F with those specs would be a truly fine car on its own but if Lexus wants the F line to grab headlines and attention they need better numbers. The F cars being equated in terms of public perception to the Audi S is not good enough, because it will then always be known as a "second tier" performance model.
However I am aware numbers are not everything. Numbers show the IS-F is as strong or stronger a contender than the Germans' equivalent models and yet they barely trickle out the lots. Providing continually strong models contending to the Germans' best will eventually give them the brand cache they need. The IS-F is a good start, but putting out a GS-F having a tremendous power deficit than the competition won't help their cause.
09-11-12, 11:38 PM
#73
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[quote=IceIridium;7478725]In this segment they NEED to be at least in the right ballpark to be taken seriously as a contender. Audi can get away with 420hp in an S6 because they still have an RS line they can dangle the carrot with even if they never make a RS6.
It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be
able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want
but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with
wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.[/quote
Well put sir, I couldn't say it better myself. Lexus is always going to be the underdog and be playing catch up, unless they start going for the gold in this showoff niche segment. Silver and bronze does not get any praise. Lexus needs to step their game up a bit more to be received in this arena of giants. MORE HORSEPOWER PLEASE.
It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be
able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want
but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with
wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.[/quote
Well put sir, I couldn't say it better myself. Lexus is always going to be the underdog and be playing catch up, unless they start going for the gold in this showoff niche segment. Silver and bronze does not get any praise. Lexus needs to step their game up a bit more to be received in this arena of giants. MORE HORSEPOWER PLEASE.
Last edited by bagyo; 09-11-12 at 11:55 PM.
09-11-12, 11:52 PM
#75
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In this segment they NEED to be at least in the right ballpark to be taken seriously as a contender. Audi can get away with 420hp in an S6 because they still have an RS line they can dangle the carrot with even if they never make a RS6.
It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.
It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.
I hate to agree with you on this one. Anything less than 500hps isn't going to do it for GS-F in today's market. I am a big Toyota's fan, and I think 4GS is fantastic. However, if you are going to enter the M5's territory, please do it properly. The only way that I can forgive toyota for having anything less than 500hps in GS-F is if they use detune LFA's V10 motor.
