Exactly like the other companies have a contract with the Top Tier group.

I did so to ask you what the difference was.

Why is one group, recommended by large car companies, "better" than another that isn't in that group but is ALSO recommended by a large car company?

The answer is likely that there is no difference. Because all gas sold in the US will work just fine as long as it's of the proper octane.

Probably because the EPA has figured out that excessive detergent doesn't actually help.

You know, just like I've been telling you.

I'm curious about their claim though (which is from the Top Tier website, that you seem to take as gosphel)

Because I can find no record of any changes to the EPA requirement in the last nearly 15 years, let alone the "past several" years.

Can you?


because the people in those quotes, unlike those studies, weren't paid by gasoline companies to say them.

Hence why I asked for any objective studies, of which you appear to have none.

But actually, did you read the quotes?

Because the very first one mentions the twice-yearly survey they do that finds no difference between gasoline brands.


None of the studies actually provide any useful results though.

Have you read them and actually considered their conclusions?

It's usually things like:

We ran this lab engine for 5000 hours on our MAGIC gasoline, then we ran this other engine for 5000 hours on SOME GAS WE WON'T EVEN TELL YOU THE NAME OF, and amazingly, our gasoline showed less deposits!


First, they don't tell you the other gas. We've no idea if it's another major non-top-tier maker (like we're discussing) or if they siphoned it out of a '73 pinto in Brazil.


Then, we have no idea what "less deposits" means in a useful sense.

5000 hours, for example, is 300,000 miles at 60 miles an hour. That's a lot more than the average owner ever drives for.

Now lets say the MAGIC gasoline only left deposits of 100 units. The "who knows WTF it was" gas left deposits of 300 units.

OMG! That's 3 TIMES more!

But in real life, the engine runs perfectly with anything less than 1000 units of deposits on it.

So you'd be approaching 1 million miles before a real difference that mattered happened.

But the "studies" never get into details like that.

I wonder why?


I discount the studies because they're paid for, and don't produce real useful results even then. (probably because they don't want the lawsuits that would come if they made unprovable "real" claims about real world benefit).


Lexus also "supports" 5,000 mile oil changes in the 2IS, for example... but actual real world testing via UOA has shown that that's a pointless "standard" and that the cars burn oil very cleanly, even conventional, with 10,000 mile changes.

As you note, they likely "support" a faction of gas brands because there's money changing hands to do so, not because there's any evidence supporting it really being "better"

 

QFT! Costco here

 

They aren't the same at all. Ford (evidently) supports/recommends a single reseller (which I find very sketchy because BP isn't even all BP oil/gas).

The automotive consortium I listed support the top tier standards some of which are discussed here http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html. There are over 25 retailers on the Top Tier list. That's the difference. The consortium including our car manufacturer supports a standard not a single retailer.

I did read the quotes you mentioned. None of them had links to any study, so it's strictly opinion.

It's totally your right to discount the results of these paid studies. I would point out all studies are paid by someone, and I choose to believe the studies that our car manufacturer supports.

Not sure I see the relevance here. Lexus supports the 5k mile oil changes is to cover the lowest quality of oil (or more specifically oil filters). I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see a "Top Tier Oil" consortium someday. It's really in car manufacturer's best interest to promote/support high standards.

Quite the contrary. We already agree the studies exist and support the top tier consortium. You choose to discount them because you question their funding source (and in your latest post...the quality of results). Could the studies be better? Yep, but I hold the studies and our car manufacturer's support in much higher regard than opinion.

 

I notice no response to my asking for a source of the claim of the 50% drop "in the last several years" too.... could it be yet another Top Tier claim they can't provide real backup for?

Uh...are you aware where the "top tier" thing comes from?

It was created by a few car companies.

Then gas brands signed on to become 'certified'.

Presumably by paying money to do so.

It's actually a pretty clever way for the car companies to get $ from multiple fuel brands rather than just money from one of em... and it doesn't "cost" the car companies anything to require WAY more than the amount of additives that actually do anything useful to get their certification, so it's win-win for them even if all that extra stuff in the gas does nothing beneficial.

The spokesperson who works for the study company, mentioning the conclusion of his study, is "opinion"

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

It seems more likely they support it to support getting their dealer network more frequent business.

Why?

Why do you think poor science is worth considering because it has the word science attached to it?

Again I mention the "studies" the cigarette companies told you about that said cigarettes were perfectly healthy.

Is the fact there's no good science to support it somewhat telling?

And again, one of my quotes had the results of an group that found no differences between fuel brands. Why are you discounting that group too?


Would it help if you know Toyota was a member of that group?

THAT would be the group who said their twice-a-year survey found no difference between brands of fuel.

Why do you discount their findings based on real life gasoline in the real world, but instead insist that Shell Oil must be telling the truth when they claim the stuff they want your to buy is "better" despite their dubious lab-only test?

(Shell so far is the only source I can find for any study showing a "benefit" from Top Tier fuel... and the test is largely on the lines of that "5000 hour test we refuse to give you the real details of")

 

Yes, I understand where "Top Tier" comes from. It started off with a few automakers who were concerned with some problems they were seeing in the field.


"The push comes as the automakers say they are seeing persistent problems such as clogged fuel injectors and as they begin to introduce a new generation of vehicles engineered to meet tougher environmental standards. Those new vehicles especially will need fuel with more additives.

The automakers are buttressing their case with an industry analysis that tested fuel samples taken from cities across the country — including Kansas City. It shows detergent levels in gasoline dropping nearly 50 percent since 1996.

“We’ve just felt for a long time that gasoline detergency was not at a proper level,” said Andrew Buczynsky, a GM fuel engineer. "

The association you mention was in existence prior to "Top Tier" program. The fact those manufacturers found problems and joined "Top Tier" due to problems they were seeing in the field is very telling .

Joe Colucci, a retired director of research and development at GM who now operates Automotive Fuels Consulting, said reducing detergent additives to the EPA regulation level was seen by some companies as a way to reduce costs. Although detergents cost only a fraction of a cent per gallon, it adds up to an enormous sum because of the huge volume of gas sold.

“They would say to themselves, ‘We'll meet the letter of the law,' and that's what has happened with much of the gasoline,” Colucci said.

By 2002, the automakers say repair records suggested that the EPA standard for detergents wasn't high enough. They approached the EPA about increasing gasoline detergents, but say they were rebuffed.


Again, you are totally entitled to your opinion and to discount the Shell, Chevron, or any top tier study. I choose to believe our car manufacturer (and several others) when they say they have seen a decline in detergent levels since 1997 and that repair issues (due to this problem) have increased.

 

Several of them didn't "join" top tier, they invented it.

But the association I mention still does fuel surveys twice a year, every year. Including the year my quote is from, which is many years newer than the creation of Top Tier.

And they still haven't found any difference between brands in fuel quality.

And Toyota (and GM, and all the rest) are still members of said association. In fact more car makers are members of that group than of Top Tier.

Yet oddly you only want to believe the Top Tier marketing info.

That's entirely your choice of course, it just doesn't seem to make any logical sense. Which reminds me of the folks who still do 3000 mile oil changes because it makes em feel better.

 

Props to Kurtz and rebs for the civilized in-depth discussion.....

 

Yep, some joined and some are founding members of the coalition.

I can't find the studies you mention, so I can't speak to the validity (or existence) of them, but I know that association does far more than fuel surveys or analysis, so it's not like these associations are in competition or even related.

Having said that, car manufacturer (from that association) specifically joined (or helped create) Top Tier because of the detergent dropoff and mechanical issues *they* were seeing in the field (as mentioned in my previous post), and that imho is *very* telling.

Quite the contrary. It does make logical sense. There's a huge difference between folks doing oil changes at 3000 miles because it makes them "feel better", and people who believe the studies and car manufacturer engineers (including some of the quotes in my previous post) that say detergent has decreased and that it's not enough to meet today's vehicles.

....You may or may not agree with their studies or results, but there is no "feeling" in this decision. I choose to believe the results I've seen (well some of them) and follow Toyota in their support of Top Tier fuels (especially when the cost in my neighborhood is almost exactly the same as discount fuels).

 

Exclusively 76, adding Amsoil PI additive every 4000 miles. IS 350 23mpg.

 

Army/Air Force Exchange Service (AAFES)-every time. They use Hess here in NY.

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporat...e-program.html

BP Joins ’Top Tier’ Detergent Gasoline Program

Release date: 01 July 2013
Membership Builds Upon BP’s Longstanding History as a Quality Gasoline Provider

BP announced today that it has joined the automotive industry’s TOP TIER program for gasoline detergency standards.

Although all three BP-branded gasoline grades treated with the company’s proprietary Invigorate additive have always exceeded the TOP TIER standard for detergency, the company formally joined the program on June 24th.

“We are committed to providing our branded marketers with the tools they need to demonstrate the high quality of BP-branded gasoline” said Amy Abraham, BP vice president of marketing and communications.

“The decision to join the TOP TIER program was easy from a technical standpoint since the engine-cleaning benefits of our Invigorate additive already exceeded TOP TIER’s detergency standard in all three grades.

From a marketing standpoint, the new TOP TIER designation will make it even easier for our marketers and consumers to differentiate BP-branded gasoline from those brands that only meet the minimum government detergency standard.”

Increasingly, consumers search the TOP TIER website to identify the brands of gasoline that can help protect their vehicles’ critical engine parts from performance-robbing deposits. As a TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline retailer, BP is now featured on the TOP TIER website, leading to increased exposure from consumers who are interested in TOP TIER gasoline or who were recommended by their auto manufacturer to use TOP TIER gasoline.




TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers:

USA

76 Stations
Aloha Petroleum
BP
Chevron
Conoco
CountryMark
Exxon
Hawaii Fueling Network (HFN)
Holiday Stationstores, Inc.
Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
MFA Oil Co.
Mileage Stations
Mobil
Ohana Fuels
Phillips 66
Quik Trip
Road Ranger
Scheirl Oil
Shell
Texaco
Tri-Par Oil Co.
U.S. Oil

Canada

Chevron
Shell
Petro
Esso

 

Good info. I've been using BP for years since there are a couple of their stations nearby and I have a BP rewards card.

 

Guess I should stop buying my gas from Costco.

 

If you've never had a gas related problem there's no need to quit using Costco gas.

 

As a 'Member Only' box store station COSTCO's membership fees preclude it from that category. But their gas has more detergents than any of the list shown. I've used their gas for over 10 years now and never had or heard of verified issues.