September 2010 Sales Thread
10-08-10, 08:37 AM
#61
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i think 'm' stands for 'moaning'. in infiniti's case it's about sales. in bmw's case it's about being overly excited. 
10-08-10, 04:49 PM
#62
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This is true for the most part. The Canadian market is quite conservative, certainly more conservative than the US market. At the same time, people here like some strange cars IMO. Cars that sell decently here include the Acura CSX, SMART cars, Lancer, and Audi 3. This is in contrast to the US market. Also the Mazda "happy face" 3 is a huge seller in Canada, yet it's insignificant in the US market.
10-11-10, 06:53 AM
#63
Fleets
September delivered the best U.S. monthly sales rate in 13 months. But the industry isn't doing it with retail sales.
Fleet sales are the growth engine of the U.S. auto market, according to automakers' internal documents obtained by Automotive News.
In the 3rd quarter, strong fleet overcame soft retail as automakers outsold the 2009 quarter, which included the cash-for-clunkers program.
"Fleet is still the driver -- it certainly isn't the consumer," said analyst George Magliano of IHS Automotive. "Fleet has backed off a bit from the 1st half, but it's still strong. The retail side is still a bit weak."
"Fleet" refers to vehicles bought by daily rental, commercial and government agencies.
Collectively, General Motors, Ford Motor Co., Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., Chrysler Group, Hyundai-Kia Automotive and Nissan North America sold 2.3 million units in the 3rd quarter, up 1%. Combined retail sales fell 4% to 1.8 million, but fleet volume surged 24% to 461,786 units according to the company documents.
Excluding GM, every 1 of those automakers saw fleet sales jump by double- or triple-digit percentages.
GM's fleet sales dropped 2% for the quarter, but fleet volume still was 26% of its total sales, the documents reveal.
Don Johnson, GM's vice president of sales, told reporters recently that GM will reduce fleet sales in the 4th quarter and expects to end the year with fleet at about 25% of its mix, the same as in 2009.
For the 6 major players that actively manage fleet sales -- officially, American Honda Motor Co. does not -- higher fleet sales overcame a slight drop in retail in the 3rd quarter.
2 automakers stood out.
In the 3rd quarter, Chrysler increased fleet as a proportion of total sales to 34%, from 25% a year earlier. But that was down from a 1st-half mix of 39% fleet.
And Nissan more than tripled 3rd-quarter fleet volume to 14,076, or 6% of total volume.
Nissan is trying to retake the No. 6 U.S. sales spot that Hyundai-Kia controls after 9 months. Nissan, with 673,701 units sold this year, narrowly trails Hyundai-Kia, with 678,071.
Ford solidified its lead over Toyota for the No. 2 overall U.S. sales spot, finishing the quarter up 8% with 488,787 sales.
Ford's fleet mix was 26% in the 3rd quarter, up from 23% a year ago.
Ford chief sales analyst George Pipas said clunkers makes year-over-year comparisons difficult but the auto market, in general, is doing better.
"It's positive that retail sales are off just a little from a period with an extremely popular incentive," Pipas said.
"Without clunkers a year ago, then the industry's 3rd quarter [this year] would have been up for both fleet and retail."
PHP Code:
Fleet leads the way
Combined 3rd-quarter U.S. sales and % change from 2009 for General Motors, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Nissan and Hyundai-Kia
3Q U.S. sales change
Retail 1,828,391 – 4%
Fleet 461,786 24%
Total 2,290,177 1%
Source: Automotive News Data Center, industry sources
10-11-10, 05:34 PM
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Lexus being a Tier 1 luxury brand doesn't see it fit to change their mid size luxury car every 5 years like Nissan does. Thus you are comparing a brand new car vs a nearly 6 year old GS.Of course a 6 year old model won't sell well when the E, 5, XF, M37/56 have all come after it. The RL shouldn't ever be mentioned, its failed since 1996 and hasn't hit any sales goal.
This is true for the most part. The Canadian market is quite conservative, certainly more conservative than the US market. At the same time, people here like some strange cars IMO. Cars that sell decently here include the Acura CSX, SMART cars, Lancer, and Audi 3. This is in contrast to the US market. Also the Mazda "happy face" 3 is a huge seller in Canada, yet it's insignificant in the US market.
Anyway, heres a helpful chart/breakdown done by tWSJ (of particular note, the YTD market share %)...
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
And here's a good breakdown of sales by vehicle class done by tExaminer.
http://www.examiner.com/autos-in-nat...-class-picture
10-11-10, 08:20 PM
#65
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The problem w/ that statement is that neither the 5 Series nor E Class saw a similar precipitous decline in sales (down to 3 digits) as they aged; and that's even w/ the E60 5 (2003) and W211 E (2002) having been older than the GS (2005).
I wouldn't say "conservative"; being more like the European market is probably more accurate (albeit w/ a few key differences).
Anyway, heres a helpful chart/breakdown done by tWSJ (of particular note, the YTD market share %)...
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
And here's a good breakdown of sales by vehicle class done by tExaminer.
http://www.examiner.com/autos-in-nat...-class-picture
I wouldn't say "conservative"; being more like the European market is probably more accurate (albeit w/ a few key differences).
Anyway, heres a helpful chart/breakdown done by tWSJ (of particular note, the YTD market share %)...
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
And here's a good breakdown of sales by vehicle class done by tExaminer.
http://www.examiner.com/autos-in-nat...-class-picture
There is no "problem" with the statement b/c FOR YEARS I have said the E-class and 5 series are in their own zone. They sell like nothing else in their class and they are the status quo and they are much more immune to sales declines since they are by far considered the standard(s) in class.
Much like how the RX and 3 series dominate their class and others are more likely to fluctuate.
10-12-10, 10:51 AM
#66
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September delivered the best U.S. monthly sales rate in 13 months. But the industry isn't doing it with retail sales.
Fleet sales are the growth engine of the U.S. auto market, according to automakers' internal documents obtained by Automotive News.
In the 3rd quarter, strong fleet overcame soft retail as automakers outsold the 2009 quarter, which included the cash-for-clunkers program.
"Fleet is still the driver -- it certainly isn't the consumer," said analyst George Magliano of IHS Automotive. "Fleet has backed off a bit from the 1st half, but it's still strong. The retail side is still a bit weak."
"Fleet" refers to vehicles bought by daily rental, commercial and government agencies.
Collectively, General Motors, Ford Motor Co., Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., Chrysler Group, Hyundai-Kia Automotive and Nissan North America sold 2.3 million units in the 3rd quarter, up 1%. Combined retail sales fell 4% to 1.8 million, but fleet volume surged 24% to 461,786 units according to the company documents.
Excluding GM, every 1 of those automakers saw fleet sales jump by double- or triple-digit percentages.
GM's fleet sales dropped 2% for the quarter, but fleet volume still was 26% of its total sales, the documents reveal.
Don Johnson, GM's vice president of sales, told reporters recently that GM will reduce fleet sales in the 4th quarter and expects to end the year with fleet at about 25% of its mix, the same as in 2009.
For the 6 major players that actively manage fleet sales -- officially, American Honda Motor Co. does not -- higher fleet sales overcame a slight drop in retail in the 3rd quarter.
2 automakers stood out.
In the 3rd quarter, Chrysler increased fleet as a proportion of total sales to 34%, from 25% a year earlier. But that was down from a 1st-half mix of 39% fleet.
And Nissan more than tripled 3rd-quarter fleet volume to 14,076, or 6% of total volume.
Nissan is trying to retake the No. 6 U.S. sales spot that Hyundai-Kia controls after 9 months. Nissan, with 673,701 units sold this year, narrowly trails Hyundai-Kia, with 678,071.
Ford solidified its lead over Toyota for the No. 2 overall U.S. sales spot, finishing the quarter up 8% with 488,787 sales.
Ford's fleet mix was 26% in the 3rd quarter, up from 23% a year ago.
Ford chief sales analyst George Pipas said clunkers makes year-over-year comparisons difficult but the auto market, in general, is doing better.
"It's positive that retail sales are off just a little from a period with an extremely popular incentive," Pipas said.
"Without clunkers a year ago, then the industry's 3rd quarter [this year] would have been up for both fleet and retail."
PHP Code:
Fleet leads the way
Combined 3rd-quarter U.S. sales and % change from 2009 for General Motors, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Nissan and Hyundai-Kia
3Q U.S. sales change
Retail 1,828,391 – 4%
Fleet 461,786 24%
Total 2,290,177 1%
Source: Automotive News Data Center, industry sources
NIssan up over 500%
Hyundai/Kia down!
Others relatively flat but still a huge chuck for GM and Chrysler.
Totally missed that post.
You can get the Benz E class, Caddy STS, Escalade, Infiniti Q56, M, G, Lincolns at rental companies like Hertz. That helps sales.
Last edited by LexFather; 10-12-10 at 08:18 PM.
10-13-10, 11:10 AM
#67
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And more evidence for what I said earlier. lol I take "you are right" or "I'm sorry I was wrong" in public or in PM
Luxury/Near luxury Incentives YTD
$1,736 - Lexus lowest
$2,614 - Acura
$3,021 - Buick
$4,369 - Chrysler
$4,620 - Cadillac
$5,111 - Infiniti
$5,170 - Lincoln Highest
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...104482689.html
Luxury/Near luxury Incentives YTD
$1,736 - Lexus lowest
$2,614 - Acura
$3,021 - Buick
$4,369 - Chrysler
$4,620 - Cadillac
$5,111 - Infiniti
$5,170 - Lincoln Highest
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...104482689.html
10-13-10, 11:48 PM
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There is no "problem" with the statement b/c FOR YEARS I have said the E-class and 5 series are in their own zone. They sell like nothing else in their class and they are the status quo and they are much more immune to sales declines since they are by far considered the standard(s) in class.
Much like how the RX and 3 series dominate their class and others are more likely to fluctuate.
Much like how the RX and 3 series dominate their class and others are more likely to fluctuate.
You often mock the sales of the new M, but GS sales are only a little better than 1/3rd of the monthly sales of the M.
And this isn't just any ordinary segment, but the "meat" of the luxury market - RWD, mid-size sedan (I don't really consider entry level/compact sedans such as the 3 Series to be "luxury").
Also, the 3 and C Class are the "standards" in compact segment, but secondary players like the Infiniti G don't see that kind of drop off even when the model is due for a change (same for the LS in the full-size segment).
Anyway, looking at the nos. for the 7 Series and the Panerama, I'm thinking a decent no. of would be 7 Series buyers (looking for a sporty 4 door option) are opting for the Porsche.
10-14-10, 07:14 AM
#69
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OK - we are not talking about the typical/normal drop-off a model sees in its latter years, but a near-total drop off the proverbial cliff.
You often mock the sales of the new M, but GS sales are only a little better than 1/3rd of the monthly sales of the M.
And this isn't just any ordinary segment, but the "meat" of the luxury market - RWD, mid-size sedan (I don't really consider entry level/compact sedans such as the 3 Series to be "luxury").
Also, the 3 and C Class are the "standards" in compact segment, but secondary players like the Infiniti G don't see that kind of drop off even when the model is due for a change (same for the LS in the full-size segment).
Anyway, looking at the nos. for the 7 Series and the Panerama, I'm thinking a decent no. of would be 7 Series buyers (looking for a sporty 4 door option) are opting for the Porsche.
You often mock the sales of the new M, but GS sales are only a little better than 1/3rd of the monthly sales of the M.
And this isn't just any ordinary segment, but the "meat" of the luxury market - RWD, mid-size sedan (I don't really consider entry level/compact sedans such as the 3 Series to be "luxury").
Also, the 3 and C Class are the "standards" in compact segment, but secondary players like the Infiniti G don't see that kind of drop off even when the model is due for a change (same for the LS in the full-size segment).
Anyway, looking at the nos. for the 7 Series and the Panerama, I'm thinking a decent no. of would be 7 Series buyers (looking for a sporty 4 door option) are opting for the Porsche.
Alas I said my points, were asked about proving them, proved them and there is nothing else to bicker or debate. The data I posted back up what I said. Time to move on.
Your definition of the "meat" is your opinion. Not sure how you say the 3 series and the compact class are not luxury. Why b/c of its size? The 3 series is one of the best all around luxury cars and its priced like one. The C/IS are all luxury compacts. Size does not dictate luxury. Tweeners are just that, tweeners selling on size/value but without the ***** to go directly into a segment.
Cars sell for different reasons. Its tough to make blanket statements and move them around from car to car.
Last edited by LexFather; 10-14-10 at 07:53 AM.
10-24-10, 09:18 PM
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OK - if you say so.
I doubt many here, much less those over at TCL will agree w/ you.
And that has nothing to do w/ the proverbial "drop off a cliff" that the GS has seen in sales.
Yeah, the M is doing better b/c it is newer and has more incentives, but as you have noted many a time, sales of the new M stink; and hence, the fact that the GS's sales is only 1/3 of that of the M (even taking the other factors into account0, it's still pretty bad.
Anyway, nice to see you completely avoiding/ignoring the main point.
The Infiniti G has a tough road to hoe going against the C Class and 3 Series and yet, even when the 2nd gen G was close launch, sales of the 1st gen G were still relatively strong.
Same goes for the LS when its replacement is ready.
Otoh, sales of the GS haven't just seen the "normal" end of cycle dip; and it's not even the "end of cycle" w/ the GS when sales began to drop precipitously in 2009 (only its 4th year of sale in the US).
Sorry, the entry-level class just doesn't have the luxurious appointments, as well as quality of materials, to be really considered luxury vehicles.
I doubt many here, much less those over at TCL will agree w/ you.
Is that how you interpret posts you don't agree with, mocking? Did you miss the above post? Lexus is lowest in incentives, hell only $30 or so above Hyundai. Infiniti is almost highest in incentives. Infiniti has the most subsidized leases with BMW. Then the GS is 6 years old and the M is brand new. Of course its going to outsell the GS in 2010.
Yeah, the M is doing better b/c it is newer and has more incentives, but as you have noted many a time, sales of the new M stink; and hence, the fact that the GS's sales is only 1/3 of that of the M (even taking the other factors into account0, it's still pretty bad.
Anyway, nice to see you completely avoiding/ignoring the main point.
The Infiniti G has a tough road to hoe going against the C Class and 3 Series and yet, even when the 2nd gen G was close launch, sales of the 1st gen G were still relatively strong.
Same goes for the LS when its replacement is ready.
Otoh, sales of the GS haven't just seen the "normal" end of cycle dip; and it's not even the "end of cycle" w/ the GS when sales began to drop precipitously in 2009 (only its 4th year of sale in the US).
Your definition of the "meat" is your opinion. Not sure how you say the 3 series and the compact class are not luxury. Why b/c of its size? The 3 series is one of the best all around luxury cars and its priced like one. The C/IS are all luxury compacts. Size does not dictate luxury. Tweeners are just that, tweeners selling on size/value but without the ***** to go directly into a segment.
10-24-10, 09:34 PM
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Last edited by LexFather; 10-24-10 at 10:01 PM.
10-24-10, 10:11 PM
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^^ Gee, at least try to address the issue at hand (poor GS sales).
And as for "luxury", anything that has to be qualified ("entry-level luxury") really isn't luxury.
Don't get me wrong, the compact segment is nice, but the quality of materials, etc. is not really up to par w/ the luxury level.
And oh, owners of Bose stereo systems think that they are "hifi" and "luxury", but that doesn't make them right.
And as for "luxury", anything that has to be qualified ("entry-level luxury") really isn't luxury.
Don't get me wrong, the compact segment is nice, but the quality of materials, etc. is not really up to par w/ the luxury level.
And oh, owners of Bose stereo systems think that they are "hifi" and "luxury", but that doesn't make them right.
Last edited by YEH; 10-24-10 at 10:16 PM.
10-24-10, 10:22 PM
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That isn't the issue at hand, its YOUR and others issue to always bring it up. The GS is the most successful Asian luxury sports sedan since 1993. It has slow sales now which people love to point out. I didn't see them pointing that out when the GS sold well. Its funny watching all the same people make fun of it and make jabs at it when ten yeas ago their favorite brand had NOTHING to compete against it while some of us were ENJOYING our GS ownership.
The GS paved the way for these other Asian sport sedans. Its great we are not fortunate enough to have multiple Asian luxury sport sedans instead of one and its great that its no longer just the E/5 with the GS but the XF, MKs etc all making noise.
The GS 450h was the worlds first luxury sport sedan hybrid and wow, now the Asian competition is trying to debut there's after the GS.
The next generation might have a GS F and guess what, another first for Asian brands.
So please harp on slow sales all you want. I'm happy with my signature.
The GS paved the way for these other Asian sport sedans. Its great we are not fortunate enough to have multiple Asian luxury sport sedans instead of one and its great that its no longer just the E/5 with the GS but the XF, MKs etc all making noise.
The GS 450h was the worlds first luxury sport sedan hybrid and wow, now the Asian competition is trying to debut there's after the GS.
The next generation might have a GS F and guess what, another first for Asian brands.
So please harp on slow sales all you want. I'm happy with my signature.
10-25-10, 02:23 PM
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That isn't the issue at hand, its YOUR and others issue to always bring it up. The GS is the most successful Asian luxury sports sedan since 1993. It has slow sales now which people love to point out. I didn't see them pointing that out when the GS sold well. Its funny watching all the same people make fun of it and make jabs at it when ten yeas ago their favorite brand had NOTHING to compete against it while some of us were ENJOYING our GS ownership.
Once again, you rewrite history.
There have been plenty of posters who have brought up the poor sales of the GS in the monthly sales thread.
And yet, you are the one who continually (and weakly) put up excuses for poor GS sales.
I'm simply debunking them.
Unlike you, I don't make weak excuses for sales of say, the Genesis coupe (it is certifiably a sales flop).
