July 2009 Auto Sales
ES: move to RWD, it'll be Lexus' conventional midsize luxury sedan and focus on luxury, like what the E-class is to MB.
GS: Will become a niche model and very likely will be a 4-door coupe, a direct competitor to the CLS
IS: Will grow in size to pave the way for the upcoming compact sedan/hatch, the current IS is already the smallest in its segment so becoming bigger shouldn't create any drama...
HS: Stay as the hybrid-only model, it is Lexus' Prius, simple as that. Just because Camry has a hybrid model I don't see that hurting Prius' sales so even if with the IS getting a hybrid I don't see it become a big impact on the HS. The HS will ride its "green" status all the way to the bank for Lexus just like Prius did for Toyota.
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What year are we in? It does not change the fact that the GS' sales is being cannibalized by the ES. It's because of how Lexus has organized their sedan line up (which is going to become even more confusing with the HS, and if the next IS gets a hybrid and grows larger, it'll be worse). The ES is larger yet cheaper, and I have seen it in person, the confusion people get when cross shopping between the two.
Rumor has it that the current generation ES will be the last that shares a platform with the Camry. If that's true, then exactly which platform would it share? Most likely that of the GS. The GS' position is already hard to define in the line up with the two sharing separate platforms, imagine how hard it'll be to justify the GS if they share the same platform.
The GS is in an awkward position. I don't know why you're even arguing with me. It's the one thing I love about Lexus and one of my favorite cars in the world. I'm not insulting Lexus, I'm disappointed in them for not allowing the GS to shine.
Rumor has it that the current generation ES will be the last that shares a platform with the Camry. If that's true, then exactly which platform would it share? Most likely that of the GS. The GS' position is already hard to define in the line up with the two sharing separate platforms, imagine how hard it'll be to justify the GS if they share the same platform.
The GS is in an awkward position. I don't know why you're even arguing with me. It's the one thing I love about Lexus and one of my favorite cars in the world. I'm not insulting Lexus, I'm disappointed in them for not allowing the GS to shine.
The ES will more than likely continue to share platforms with the Camry as teh new RX does and it will continue to get more refined with a hybrid/AWD probably coming next go round.
The GS fights the 5/E etc. It drives like a bigger IS not anything like the ES. The ES has its core buyers who want something like a LS but more affordable.
Your hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis. It has merit as we have discussed how the ES may take some GS sales away. However I feel the COMPETITION has stepped up against the 3GS whereas with the 2GS it was really just the 5/E/GS. Today we have those cars and now the very good A6, XF, M35/45, MKZ, S80, RL.
I do know having driven both extensively they are nothing alike. The new GS will grow in size and hopefully be a hit like the 2GS was.
Amazingly the 2006 GS outsold any year of the 98-05 GS.
I agree that hopefully the GS "shines" more than this model next go round.
GS-F anyone?
CL Community Team
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,481
Likes: 198
From: San Francisco, CA
it is really surprising why the GS is a sales flop. IMO, it is gorgeous, better looking than the ES even. But it just doesnt have the roominess of the ES, and i guess the dash is looking a bit dated now.
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July 2009 Top 10
* Ford F-Series: 36,327
* Toyota Camry: 33,974
* Honda Civic: 30,037
* Honda Accord: 29,774
* Toyota Corolla: 29,593
* Chevy Silverado: 27,617
* Ford Focus: 21,830
* Ford Escape: 20,241
* Nissan Altima: 19,252
* Toyota Prius: 19,173
* Ford F-Series: 36,327
* Toyota Camry: 33,974
* Honda Civic: 30,037
* Honda Accord: 29,774
* Toyota Corolla: 29,593
* Chevy Silverado: 27,617
* Ford Focus: 21,830
* Ford Escape: 20,241
* Nissan Altima: 19,252
* Toyota Prius: 19,173
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,806
Likes: 7
From: californication
OMGWTFBBQ!!
Kia outsold Lexus !
lexus ES going to RWD?? don't count on it. That would increase cost and make it less competitive. That would also mean they'd need to make an AWD for snow areas.
That's just too much trouble.
Not to mention, the front wheels would be high like a monster truck. You know Lexus AWD's always have the front wheels 1 foot higher than the back...
Kia outsold Lexus !
lexus ES going to RWD?? don't count on it. That would increase cost and make it less competitive. That would also mean they'd need to make an AWD for snow areas.
That's just too much trouble.
Not to mention, the front wheels would be high like a monster truck. You know Lexus AWD's always have the front wheels 1 foot higher than the back...
CL Community Team
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,334
Likes: 61
From: California
Exactly! Kia is not in the same class as Lexus, BMW or Mercedes Benz and Lexus outsold BMW and MB for the month of July. OMFG Kia and Toyota are in the same class and Toyota butt raped Kia bigtime...
Toyota: 82740
Ford: 78398
Honda: 59811
Chevy: 27617
Nissan: 19252
If Ford can get the Fusion above, say the Altima (quite possible I'd say) then Ford will be winning this race.
you keep leaving out the genesis sedan, which i believe has CLOBBERED GS sales. it's an attractive, refined and roomy sedan with V6 and V8 options. yes it's still a hyundai, but it's been consistently at around 2k sales a month. putting subjective looks aside, what really does a 3GS have over a genesis?
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,418
Likes: 10
From: NC
Es350
I would not be surprised if the ES350 eventually went RWD or @ least optional AWD mostly bc of the normal increase in HP that vehicles go thru over the years. Sooner or later, I imagine that it will have too much for a FWD set up ... then again, I think that Toyota makes some car in Australia(?) that sends like 320hp to the front tires.
On the flip side, the whole CAFE thing may affect all of this but I would imagine that it would limit the power/FWD of the Avalon/Camry more so than the ES350. I do believe that ES350 should remain a luxury oriented FWD model just to keep variety in the Lexus lineup.
As for the Kia comment, I assume that dunnojack was joking & it was just a parody of another poster on this board so I would not take it seriously.
On the flip side, the whole CAFE thing may affect all of this but I would imagine that it would limit the power/FWD of the Avalon/Camry more so than the ES350. I do believe that ES350 should remain a luxury oriented FWD model just to keep variety in the Lexus lineup.
As for the Kia comment, I assume that dunnojack was joking & it was just a parody of another poster on this board so I would not take it seriously.
What year are we in? It does not change the fact that the GS' sales is being cannibalized by the ES. It's because of how Lexus has organized their sedan line up (which is going to become even more confusing with the HS, and if the next IS gets a hybrid and grows larger, it'll be worse). The ES is larger yet cheaper, and I have seen it in person, the confusion people get when cross shopping between the two.
Rumor has it that the current generation ES will be the last that shares a platform with the Camry. If that's true, then exactly which platform would it share? Most likely that of the GS. The GS' position is already hard to define in the line up with the two sharing separate platforms, imagine how hard it'll be to justify the GS if they share the same platform.
The GS is in an awkward position. I don't know why you're even arguing with me. It's the one thing I love about Lexus and one of my favorite cars in the world. I'm not insulting Lexus, I'm disappointed in them for not allowing the GS to shine.
Rumor has it that the current generation ES will be the last that shares a platform with the Camry. If that's true, then exactly which platform would it share? Most likely that of the GS. The GS' position is already hard to define in the line up with the two sharing separate platforms, imagine how hard it'll be to justify the GS if they share the same platform.
The GS is in an awkward position. I don't know why you're even arguing with me. It's the one thing I love about Lexus and one of my favorite cars in the world. I'm not insulting Lexus, I'm disappointed in them for not allowing the GS to shine.
In a nutshell: ES is bigger than the GS, offers 90% of the same features, still has the circle L on the front, and the two don't drive all that different until you push them to the limit. All of this combined with the price advantage of the ES = GS gets trampled.
It will interesting to see how Lexus positions the 4GS in relation to the ES, and now HS. They will have to come up with something good, and vastly different.
quick math:
Lexus popular models (ES IS RX) accounted for 88% of sales in july.
4393 ES
4029 IS
7811 RX
16233 / 18517
in contrast, Mercedes popular models (C, E, M) accounted for 72%.
4450 C
5556 E
1674 M
11680 / 16228
Lexus popular models (ES IS RX) accounted for 88% of sales in july.
4393 ES
4029 IS
7811 RX
16233 / 18517
in contrast, Mercedes popular models (C, E, M) accounted for 72%.
4450 C
5556 E
1674 M
11680 / 16228
CL Community Team
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 30,271
Likes: 349
From: Canada
Lexus should have a greater variety of models, and Mercedes could do with a couple less maybe ...