Remember its not about what is the better vehicle, its what vehicle is more historically significant. Without the Navigator there would be no Escalade. GM rushed the Escalade out because of the success of the Navigator.

The Explorer is what mainstreamed family SUVs, thats why its so historically significant. Before the Explorer minivans were the dominant family vehicle and the Explorer is the first vehicle that really started that shift away from them to SUVs. Tahoe wasn't as historically significant.

Wouldn't be my choice either but I can understand the enthusiast appeal. The fact that it is a Land Cruiser alone is enough for it to have that appeal.

 

The Prius absolutely the #1 most influential and important model of the last 50 years. Model S is #2 (but it got cancelled)

 

Oh I do, I know one group made the absolute best cars and another made the best appliances.

I'm well aware of the advancements Toyota encouraged but they never once attained the height of the car world. No ones dream cars given an unlimited budget are ever Toyotas for a given category

Every single argument for Toyotas favor so far in this thread centers around the "value" or the advancement they pushed on the production side of things. Nothing about the actual cars and how they stand above all others.

 

Of the two what is the better car? What was built better? What was more advanced? More capable? The absolute undisputed best of its class?

Not the Lexus. The Pheaton was an example of stupid people looking at a badge first, what would have happened if Lexus never existed and the LS400 was branded as a Toyota? It would have failed harder as it doesn't have any technical superiority to fall back on that is still referenced today as one of the most throughly engineered cars ever.

I have no interest in owning an LS400, I do own a W12 Phaeton.

 

Just because Toyota, a mainstream carmaker, doesn't make cars that people would spend any amount of money for doesn't mean they haven't attained "the height of the car world". They have made many incredibly important cars and have had a bigger impact on the car industry than arguably anybody else. Toyota is not Ferrari or Lamborghini lol. Neither is Audi, or Mercedes, or BMW.

As for dream cars with unlimited budgets though, they did sell $400k LFAs and sold them all, and they have gone up in value. You are well aware of what someone can buy for $500k+, yet people still buy LFAs for that cost and more. So the argument that they aren't a dream car for people with unlimited budgets doesn't make much sense. Audi has never made any such vehicle.

 

We're talking about which car had a bigger impact on the car industry, the Phaeton had no impact. Honestly? I would rather have a well kept 98-00 LS400 than a Phaeton, no contest.

 

LFA vs Carrera GT

Do you own a Prius? LS? Does anything they make have you lining up? Or have you moved on to better?

That's my point if Toyota/Lexus are amazing appliance makers and not good car makers.

Audi is part of VAG. VW AUDI GROUP, we have Bentley, Porsche, VW, AUDI, Bugatti, Lamborghini. The Hurrican IS and Audi chassis and engine btw and last I checked both it and the R8 are more desirable than anything Toyota has come up with.

I mean holy hell look at the RS6 vs anything Lexus makes right now and you tell me what company makes the more desirable car

 

I never cared about impact, if that's the logic we go by your S class is unimportant and meaningless in the face of the glory of the F150 and Corolla

If we are talking impact then yes, worship at the feet of the great appliance maker of our time.

 

Interesting 2004 C&D Luxury car comparison. #1? Lexus LS430. #5 out of 6? VW Phaeton lol.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...mparison-test/

Their assessment:



Sounds aMaZiNg lol

 

My S Class is absolutely unimportant and meaningless in terms of importance to the industry, yes. Other generations of the S Class have not been so but mine is.



The fact that we're even having that conversation proves my point.

Quote:

Do you own a Prius? LS? Does anything they make have you lining up? Or have you moved on to better?

I had 4 Lexus LSs and a Prius. Just because I no longer have cars I had 20+ years ago doesn't mean they weren't incredible and significant to the industry.

If Lexus kept making a car of the same level as the 1-4 gen LS I would still drive one.

Quote:

Audi is part of VAG. VW AUDI GROUP, we have Bentley, Porsche, VW, AUDI, Bugatti, Lamborghini. The Hurrican IS and Audi chassis and engine btw and last I checked both it and the R8 are more desirable than anything Toyota has come up with.

Because they have bought all of those companies lol

R8?!? HAHA, find me an R8 going across the block for $900k and we can compare it to an LFA.

 

You ever even drive one? See one in person?

Remember, someone with experience isn't at the mercy of someone with an opinion.

 

LS430 won that comparo and everything they say about it is accurate.

----------------------------------------

If you just walked up and asked, we'd say this is not a Car and Driver sort of car. But like gravity, the Lexus kept pulling on us. It's so confident. It does so many things beautifully. It's like the salesman who never quits, and finally, you find yourself agreeing with him.

HIGHS: Gorgeous interior details, whipped-cream ride, silky shifts, rear-seat accouterments to dazzle the most demanding potentate.
LOWS: Tires eager to squeal, brakes eager to make big whoa instead of deft modulations, never very involving on the back roads.

The Lexus ride is unmatched in this group. There's a switch on the dash that lets you make it a little worse if you must. Go ahead, if more sinew in the suspenders makes you think handling is better.

If you really want muscles, opt for the sport suspension with 18-inch summer tires. The 17s on the test car were quick to moan when pushed. Skidpad grip was weakest of all, 0.73 g. But don't confuse that with stumbling behavior. This is an agile dancer wearing slippery shoes.

It's best that you have a light touch on the controls when you hustle. The steering and the brakes are almost delicate in their feel. You must caress them. And when you do, the responses come with precision. Still, this sedan is at its best on the expressway. The steering knows exactly where straight ahead is, and the faster you go, the more it locks onto that heading.



Acceleration is brisk: second best to 60 mph; third in the quarter, at 95 mph, as it showed taillights to three of the four Germans. Yet its fuel economy on our trip tied the Jag's at 21 mpg, topped the Audi's, BMW's, and Benz's by 2 mpg, and bettered the VW's by 4. All that plus the sound of ripping silk when you toe into the power. Oh, yes.

Power, though, is something you take for granted in this class. It's the Lexus interior that keeps amazing. Are pleasure palaces this fine? The Ecru leather is so soft ($1460). The seat is such a perfect shape, and amazingly, it feels that way for every driver. The wood grain is so radiant, so expressive, so intricate and self-illuminating . . . how often must you change the batteries?

Unlike Jaguar, Lexus mounts a full-frontal gizmo attack, particularly with the optional Potentate package ($11,320) that turns the back seat into hedonist heaven. There's a power slider that puts you into recline, heaters and coolers in the cushion, a tingler/tickler somewhere in the backrest to give you that Magic Fingers massage, plus cup holders, window shades, light dimmers, door closers, a refrigerator, your own back-seat air conditioner, and—are you ready?—an "optical deodorizer." We forgot to test it! Well, the back seat is just not our promised land.

But if Dick Grasso is buying, yes, thanks, we'll have one in Cypress Pearl, and have his people call our people as soon as it's ready.

 

https://www.audi.com/en/sport/motors...ng/r8-lms-gt3/

These are road legal and more expensive than the LFA as requested.

 

Yes to both, doesn't interest me at all. Test drove it when it was brand new.

Those people at C&D who were totally underwhelmed by it drove it too lol

 

Try again, nowhere close